[Music]
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hello my name is Jason Peck and this is
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a comedy Q&A interview with Professor
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Richard Martin in this interview we
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talked about Greek playwright
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Aristophanes
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who’s also known as the father of comedy
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professor Martin has taught at several
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universities including Stanford and is
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also the author or co-author of several
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books so if this is a subject that
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interests you maybe check out one of
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these courses or take a look at one of
00:34
these books in the meantime please enjoy
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this interview with Professor Richard
00:39
Martin and those that professor Martin
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yes it is yes
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so it’s the only way for people
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unfamiliar with the work of Aristophanes
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do you think there’s any combination of
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modern comedians that you may be
00:57
familiar with who could sort of you know
01:01
that will be similar to his work it
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really would have to be a combination
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there is no one person or troupe that
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does it and I’m thinking it would have
01:17
to be something like Monty Python first
01:19
of all oh yes okay you’re thinking of
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the the collective work of Monty Python
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and combined with something like Stephen
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Colbert or Jimmy Kimmel and what I mean
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by that is it’s topical it’s political
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it’s like stand-up in a way because you
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got these jokes that zing local
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demagogues in Athens and the you know
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people sitting in front of the stage
01:50
right in the theater who are getting
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satirized and parodied and insulted
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right to their face right even Colbert
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doesn’t have that because he doesn’t
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have people in the administration right
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in front of him in the theater but he
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has them on TV so there’s that kind of
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satirical in so
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thing stand up behavior combined with
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these fantastic plots the kind of thing
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that Monty Python came up with all the
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time so if you can imagine furthermore
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something in musical form with lots of
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interludes lots of singing and dancing
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and carousing so it’s got a very strict
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formal kind of feel to it with the kind
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of hilarity that the Monty Python
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routines take over right that would be a
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little bit like the combination that
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must have been okay got it
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now you mentioned demagogues that he was
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satirizing could you would you be able
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to just really roughly paint a a picture
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of what Greece was like during
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Aristophanes his time they were in the
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middle of a war is that right that’s
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right yes and so we know that the the
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Peloponnesian War so-called lasted from
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431 to 404 BC got it and Aristophanes
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had his first play produced in 427 BC in
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Athens so already the war had been
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grinding on for three or four years okay
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so when we say Greece of course we know
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most about just one city-state Athens
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mmm-hmm and the Peloponnesian War is
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basically Athens versus Sparta but it
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became almost a regional World War and
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since Athens had many allies and Sparta
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had a number of aloes and so the Athens
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is the place we know most about because
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that’s the place theater seems to have
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been born in the way that we have it and
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Aristophanes is the only surviving
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comedian he did probably 40 or so plays
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in his lifetime but we only have 11 of
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them and we just have bits and pieces of
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the other guys who were competing
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against him
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right in a few sentences the
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Peloponnesian War started with the
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Spartans invading Athenian territory
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pretty regularly every spring in summer
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okay Pericles had the idea of bringing
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people from the outlying districts in
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Attica the area around Athens bringing
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them inside the city walls which caused
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on the one hand it was a good defensive
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move on the other hand it caused all
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kinds of crowding and probably helped
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lead to disease there was a big plague
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in which Pericles himself lost a son um
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so that was all just before Aristophanes
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begins producing his comedy then there’s
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a let-up in the fighting around 422 421
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and then it resumes again a couple of
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years later and finally Athens loses
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this war because they lose their their
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fleet of ships on which they depend so
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after that the Athenian democracy goes
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on for a bit
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but it’s never like the golden years so
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what we’re seeing is really the last
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couple of decades of the Golden Age of
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Athens in Aristophanes okay got it and
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just it’s just so I’m clear Sparta was a
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part of Greece won right yeah you know
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there was no official country of Greece
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until 1821 in the 19th century yeah so
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it was just a collection of about 800
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city-states
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you know things ranging for maybe 5,000
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people to a hundred thousand people who
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shared a language who shared pretty much
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the same set of divinities and tope
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practices and you know they saw each
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other as sharing a culture but there was
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no organized country of Greece right
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right so it wasn’t quite a civil war
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then because they were they were in the
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same region yeah it’s not because the
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the Spartans have a slightly different
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dialect they have different
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gods that they pay attention to more
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than the Athenians as so yeah it’s it’s
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more like hmm I don’t know be like
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English against Scots or something oh
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come yeah you know they share territory
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they share to some extent the same
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language yeah
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but interestingly enough the translators
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of Aristophanes in the early 20th
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century when they wanted to do other
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dialects like B ocean or Spartan dialect
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they would often use lowland Scots to
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represent the other whereas the
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Athenians would be speaking you know
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more southern English got it
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interesting interesting okay yeah
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and so so that was the the the time that
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he was writing in there was a war
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happening and so so they would had they
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would I might Craig I mean I have a
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vague knowledge nothing like your own
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obviously I have a vague knowledge of
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Aristophanes I’ve read a couple of these
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plays read a carnie ins Lysistrata
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assembly women so I’ve read those in the
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past and I’ve read there was a but I
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think it was the theater of Aristophanes
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by Kenneth McLeish I think it was I got
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hold of Roy that book many years ago now
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what I’m trying to and what I’m trying
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to get to is so he would write his plays
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but they would they am I correct and
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understanding they were only performed
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during like a festival or a competition
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exactly yeah you got it there were two
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festival periods in Athens each year and
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they would be the same festivals at
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which tragedies were produced right and
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comedies on different days so the major
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festival called the Dionysia
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you know in the worship of Dionysus
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would be that’s the kind of top-shelf
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competition and apparently they had five
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different comic poets
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staging one play apiece so Aristophanes
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would be up against four other guys and
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then the judges would award for a second
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third prize they’d also award a prize
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for an actor starting later in the
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fourth century
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less an actor so it was a lot like the
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dramatic festivals that we you know
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competitions we still have right right
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but it was a one-time deal so that was
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it it’s not like a movie or not like a
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Broadway play you can go to you can see
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cats and on Broadway for 20 years that
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was your one shot only in maybe March
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for 25 you could see the car nians right
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and then that’s it
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that’s it if you didn’t see it too bad
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for you
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well yeah they developed a book trade
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later in the fifth century and you could
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with difficulty
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you know the elite who could read it
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might have been maybe two out of ten
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people yes could actually purchase a
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scroll you’d go to apparently to the
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bookseller and you’d say you know I want
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a copy of a couple of things by
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Aristophanes and then it’s like an early
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copy shop they’d have a slave in the
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back room who would carefully transcribe
10:12
it sometimes not so carefully yes the
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master copy that they had and then you
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would come by a week later and pick it
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up it’s apparently the way it worked
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right so it’s not like they’ve got
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multiple copies some and you just
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purchased them it’s yeah it would take a
10:27
lot of effort to actually get a copy of
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the book right and so they presumably
10:32
then you were I think you mentioned
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earlier on here he originally wrote
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something like around 40 plays so
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presumably they would have had maybe all
10:40
40 or at least as close a number and
10:44
then you could purchase whatever you
10:46
wanted
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probably yeah I mean it’s very unclear
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how we ended up only getting the ones
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that we have right because we know the
10:54
titles of the others yeah and you know
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we just we have little pitiful scraps
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they fill one volume and some of them
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are like two words you
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but a certain plays got into the
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curriculum and they were guaranteed more
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success because little Athenian boys all
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through the period of the Roman Empire
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and the early Byzantine period would
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have to read like the Pluto’s the wealth
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I thought it’s one of the favorite ones
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got it okay now I wanted I was looking
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at your your information on the Stanford
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website and I you know obviously I do a
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bit of background reading about before
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the whoever I’m speaking to and there
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was something that left out at me I hope
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it’s okay if we can we can just talk a
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little bit about the course that you’re
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running is that okay sure because what I
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was reading it’s you know at Stanford
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you teach the course classics three
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one-eighth Aristophanes comedy and
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democracy and then and the description
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on the website says intensive study of
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three plays in Greek so not in English
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in Greek and it’s nice piece and what is
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the pronunciation of that then the last
12:15
one the original word for assembly women
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so he say that again so it ecclesia Zeus
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I am I bring up you did just momentarily
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that yeah and and it’s the word ecclesia
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means assembly and they make a verb out
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of it to go to the assembly and they put
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a feminine ending on it so it’s
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basically women who go to the assembly
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got it okay and then the the rest of the
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description says and the rest in the
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corpus in English got it
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with reference to formal features what
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is what do you mean by formal features
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there well this is something you you
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wouldn’t really see clearly in the
13:02
English translation but um each part of
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the play has a different meter in Greek
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so the spoken parts are air in iambic
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trimeter meter then the
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chorus marches on to what’s called the
13:19
anapestic meter which is like ba-ba-boom
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ba-ba-boom ba-ba-boom ba-ba-boom must
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have been to some sort of music then
13:25
there are lyric songs in these very
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complicated meters that recall the
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poetry of Sappho and and other lyric
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poets so that’s what I’m saying in order
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to recreate it you have to imagine
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something like you know Oklahoma or
13:40
Claire’s or an American musical in order
13:44
to capture the kind of musical
13:45
differentiation so those are some of the
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formal features then there are another
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two there’s one called the a goon a gon
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which is the contest uh-huh and it’s a
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very careful kind of schema as to how
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two major figures Duke it out on stage
14:06
verbally I see and it’s another one
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finally called the power reverses the
14:13
going forward where the chorus kind of
14:15
comes forward on the stage and speaks to
14:18
the audience directly almost like in the
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persona of Aristophanes himself I see
14:25
and they give advice and talk about
14:26
political issues right and would they
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maybe throw it open for audience
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interaction at that point that’s a great
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question because it seems that sometimes
14:38
they make reference to oh look at
14:41
so-and-so in the audience is doing such
14:43
and such yeah whether that’s a stylized
14:45
bit or something which is more like you
14:48
know David Letterman actually tossing
14:51
things out to the audience and hearing
14:54
back it’s an open question I love to
14:57
imagine that the audience is interacting
14:59
at all these times right because I mean
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you know I obviously I don’t really want
15:05
to extrapolate but you know I I guess
15:08
I’m kind of a little bit more free to do
15:09
that than you are I mean there would be
15:11
there would have been a lot of
15:12
interaction in Shakespeare’s day and
15:15
then and then later on in the
15:18
restoration period so I you know they’re
15:21
the silent audiences in my understanding
15:24
is is a much later thing where audiences
15:27
yeah I think so you know I think that’s
15:29
probably at one
15:29
a century invention yeah anything I
15:32
think so I’m with you I would have yea
15:34
played frankly and say you’ve got people
15:37
you’ve got at least 5,000 people in the
15:40
audience first of all it’s open air yes
15:44
you probably got guys selling peanuts or
15:46
something on the aisles and we know that
15:49
they made a lot of noise by kicking the
15:53
back of their seeds with their feet
15:56
because Plato has some references to
15:58
that so I’m sure that it’s a rare
16:01
audience and you’ve got actors who must
16:04
be really bowling out through their
16:07
masks in order to reach the back rows in
16:12
a theater that holds at least 5,000
16:14
people in the fifth century right right
16:16
I do just want to finish with the
16:21
description but just before I of your
16:23
course but just before I do something
16:26
that’s to come to my mind as you
16:28
mentioned the masks now if you I’m not
16:34
sure if you’ve got a theater background
16:36
you know as in I proudly appeared in
16:40
productions of the South Boston players
16:43
and you know I high school and the real
16:46
amateur stuff but right I love live
16:49
theater
16:50
okay the the reason for me asking is you
16:52
mentioned about the masks now if in your
16:57
opinion in your educated opinion if any
17:00
a theater company or myself or anybody
17:03
was to try to stage Aristophanes today
17:08
do you think is it better to try and
17:11
stage it as they did it replete with the
17:14
masks or loose masks altogether
17:19
you know that’s a great question and I
17:23
much as I would love to try to do it you
17:26
know in an authentic historical sort of
17:29
like early music troops who really want
17:33
an archaeological version yeah I don’t
17:36
think it would fly because we just we
17:39
associate masks with a completely
17:41
different realm of experience you know
17:43
we think of like Halloween or we Hank of
17:46
Kabuki or no drama or something like
17:50
that so I think it would just be too
17:51
weird for anglo-american audiences
17:56
although you know the BBC did wonderful
17:58
productions of tragedy the few that I’ve
18:02
seen Aristophanes with masks they don’t
18:06
carry very well because again they’re
18:10
you’re always defeating the audience’s
18:12
expectation to see eerie actions on the
18:16
face and you can’t do reactions in the
18:18
face well some people would claim you
18:20
can actually do them with masks if you
18:22
have an expert actor yeah as you find
18:25
you know you see in in kabuki and in no
18:29
theatre so but it’s just really
18:31
difficult right right and they yeah it
18:34
would be that an additional level of
18:38
distance I think you know they’ve got
18:40
the decision time as it is and then
18:44
you’ve got the business of masks oh yeah
18:47
I mean so that’s the big question do you
18:49
want to make it alien and strange you
18:52
know kind of Brechtian theater or do you
18:55
want to make it really like something
18:58
you could see on Broadway or TV yeah and
19:01
and so then with that in mind if so
19:07
let’s assume then a company’s gonna
19:09
stage some Aristophanes they decide to
19:13
lose the masks what about the the
19:16
references there were a lot of I mean
19:18
the references to Cleon we can sort of
19:21
figure out you know from what I’ve read
19:23
he was a as you were mentioning he was a
19:25
demagogue so we could you know that
19:28
would be like a modern comparison we’re
19:29
looking talking about Hitler or
19:30
Mussolini something like that but in
19:33
terms of
19:33
not to mention later figures yeah yep a
19:36
lot of later figures that’s right but in
19:41
terms of like other references more
19:43
local references you know is it worth
19:45
completely removing those and updating
19:48
those or or do you think it would be
19:49
good to keep those you know so again
19:52
it’s a sort of archeological instinct
19:55
versus the instinct to connect directly
19:58
yeah and I have to say that it it might
20:03
turn people off if you keep them you
20:06
know if you’re gonna really keep things
20:08
I would say go whole hog and produce a
20:11
thing in Greek and write it in fact
20:14
King’s College London does this I think
20:17
every other year they do a Greek play I
20:19
planned them perform the wasps of
20:22
Aristophanes in Greek and was hilarious
20:25
they did musical numbers and everything
20:28
but you have to know Greek ancient Greek
20:31
to get it on the other hand you not to
20:35
blow our own horn at Stanford but our
20:38
grad students every year put on
20:40
something through Stanford classics in
20:43
theater and they take an Aristophanes
20:45
play or sometimes a plot line Latin
20:48
comedy and they totally morph it into
20:54
current day terms so they’ve done the
20:58
clouds in terms of you know
21:02
deconstruction being taught in the
21:04
school and they’ve done women at the
21:07
Assembly in terms of Occupy Wall Street
21:09
so they’ve done some brilliant things
21:11
and they’re all commercial message all
21:13
online through our website Stanford
21:15
classics and I think that’s the way to
21:18
go the audience’s love it it’s it’s pure
21:20
comedy but the basic inspiration is
21:23
Error Stefanik right nice nice okay so
21:30
just a cycle back to the end I know we
21:32
sort of broken this up and gone on a
21:34
little digression here and very comic –
21:39
I I do want to just cycle back to the
21:42
last sentence of your of the description
21:44
of your course the final sentence being
21:47
and a focus on how old comedy related to
21:51
the democratic practices of Athens would
21:56
you be able to tell me a little bit more
21:57
about what you mean by that well this is
22:01
something we’re always exploring in the
22:04
seminar but in a modest outline in
22:08
Athens you have three different physical
22:13
spaces in which you gather a whole bunch
22:17
of citizens and you decide on crucial
22:21
issues and number one is the ecclesia
22:24
the assembly yeah where you have at
22:26
least 6,000 people on a hill which is
22:30
just across the street basically from
22:32
the theatre of dionysus so you can see
22:35
that theater from the so called clinics
22:37
where the Assembly met then there’s the
22:40
courts in the Agora on the other side of
22:43
the Acropolis Hill there’s a whole
22:45
system of Courts where you have juries
22:47
sometimes five thousand people on a jury
22:50
so there’s these big judgmental spaces
22:54
where people decide on policy and they
22:57
rank each other out
22:59
they make speeches the court the
23:01
assembly and finally the theater so the
23:03
theater is like one of these performance
23:06
spaces in terms of the topography of
23:08
Athenian democracy and the ideology of
23:12
Athenian democracy it’s art that really
23:15
matters it talks to what’s going on that
23:17
year that month
23:20
it calls for judgment right there
23:23
somebody’s going to win somebody’s going
23:24
to lose so it’s like a court it’s like
23:27
an assembly and that’s the the basic
23:29
idea for exploring how illusions in the
23:33
play or decision-making in the play or
23:35
even where people come from what
23:37
neighborhoods they come from in the play
23:39
in our Stephanies reveal things I’ll
23:42
give you one example Aristophanes
23:44
himself we know comes from a
23:49
neighborhood is called a diamond DME in
23:52
Athenian political parlance which is
23:56
right downtown called CUDA and I own
23:58
his major opponent at least in the
24:02
stylization of the play is the demagogue
24:05
Cleon who comes from the same
24:07
neighborhood and we know that cleon’s
24:09
father ran a cannery not far from the
24:13
neighborhood and we also know from
24:15
inscriptions that survived that people
24:18
were up in arms against this tannery for
24:20
polluting the local river so there’s all
24:22
kinds of kind of infighting neighborhood
24:25
issues or there’s rural issues people in
24:28
the outlying districts versus people
24:31
downtown what policies they want you get
24:35
into kind of NIMBYism not in my backyard
24:38
it’s perfect kind of urban localized
24:43
comedy as well so it’s not not quite the
24:45
same as talking about national political
24:48
issues in the way that Stephen Colbert
24:50
would it’s more like maybe David
24:53
Letterman talking about stuff in New
24:54
York City got it I see so it would be it
24:58
would be the like Letterman then it
25:01
would be local New York staff as well as
25:03
at the national level yeah exactly right
25:07
because what happens in New York happens
25:09
elsewhere yeah but it’s also you know
25:12
some of the in jobs even now if you ask
25:15
somebody in you know Idaho what such and
25:19
such a joke meant on Letterman in the
25:23
1990s they would be clueless because
25:26
they wouldn’t think of you know the
25:28
mayor of New York at the time and or the
25:30
issues in the subway or rather something
25:33
like that their logo all comedy is local
25:36
it’s like all politics is local
25:38
as Tip O’Neill used to say old comedy is
25:43
local there’s a there’s a reference that
25:45
I bet you don’t get Tip O’Neill and I’m
25:48
aware of the name okay but again anybody
25:52
coming from Boston like myself would
25:54
know this guy you know politics is local
25:56
and comedy is local in in these terms in
26:01
the arista fanuc comedy is real local
26:04
right but of course that causes big
26:06
problems for how you translate it right
26:09
got it
26:09
so we US you were just
26:12
sort of talking about the space of the
26:16
theater now did I misunderstand that the
26:20
way you were describing it it painted an
26:22
image in my head that everything was
26:25
open so if people are making policy if
26:29
politicians are making policies you can
26:32
walk by you can see them sitting there
26:33
doing that is that about right I mean
26:37
the the well just to compare assembly
26:40
and theater they both in big open-air
26:44
slopes on a hill one on the Acropolis
26:47
one on the panik’s across the street
26:50
maybe you know a couple hundred meters
26:54
anybody can go and attend it seems you
26:58
didn’t need a ticket at some point to
27:00
get into the space of the theater of
27:03
Dionysus but then they made tickets
27:06
available kind of a special fund so I’m
27:09
sorry professor I don’t mean to
27:10
interrupt you but you’re you’re breaking
27:12
up there slightly I’m breaking up not
27:15
sure what’s perfect it’s just okay yeah
27:17
that’s right yeah it seems to be the
27:19
direction in which I point the phone
27:21
here okay I’m thank you so where where
27:24
where did I we were talking about you
27:27
were talking about tickets yeah so you
27:31
don’t need a ticket to get into the
27:33
assembly but basically they’re the same
27:36
structure a bunch of people 5,000 6,000
27:40
people male citizens of course in the
27:43
assembly have the right to anybody can
27:47
stand up and voice his opinion in the
27:50
theatre probably women and children are
27:52
there although we’re not quite sure but
27:55
also lots of male citizens so they’re
27:58
they’re kind of homologous groups and
28:02
basically there’s a same group because
28:03
the male citizens who would go to the
28:05
assembly one day would be in the theatre
28:08
the next day so they share all of these
28:10
group critical judgmental venues oh wow
28:17
so would that be like the US Congress
28:21
being essentially an open building that
28:23
you could walk by yeah you
28:26
or when it get even better the the US
28:29
Congress is in the open air there yeah
28:32
and then they go across the street all
28:35
together to go to a show which makes fun
28:39
of the US Congress that that’s the sort
28:42
of tension if you could imagine that I
28:44
would love to see that in on Capitol
28:47
Hill right yeah Wow Wow yeah there was
28:51
that comedy group the Capitol Steps you
28:53
remember yeah they would do little skits
28:55
about politics but it was nothing like
28:58
going to a theater with 5,000 people but
29:00
yeah they’re all open-air right Wow okay
29:03
okay that that’s that’s very interesting
29:06
I didn’t know that and then so so then
29:11
just thinking more just a little bit
29:13
more about their you know because I I
29:16
took when I when I read the center’s all
29:19
commonly related to the democratic
29:21
practices of Athens I my initial
29:25
reaction I guess I misread it was how
29:29
comedy has it kind of having an impact
29:31
on democracy oh yeah well that’s part of
29:35
it too so the other step is really to
29:38
you know to realize the analogy among
29:42
court system which was a huge political
29:45
machine assembly which was where things
29:49
really happened you made policy
29:52
basically made foreign policy and urban
29:54
policy yes it’s a city state and and
29:57
then the theater so the theater let’s
29:59
say somebody like Aristophanes puts on a
30:02
play yeah that makes fun of the
30:04
demagogue Cleon that’s going to have an
30:07
instant impact and we know when he put
30:09
on a play in 427 we don’t have that
30:12
particular play but it made fun of Cleon
30:15
the the local demagogue at the time
30:17
after Pericles had died and Cleon was so
30:21
enraged that he took Aristophanes to
30:24
court and Aristophanes Aristophanes won
30:28
but you could imagine there are folks in
30:31
the court jurors because any Athenian
30:34
citizen could be a juror who had
30:35
probably seen the play the year before
30:38
so it’s really in
30:40
crossing of boundaries and yeah these
30:44
plays could have an impact on national
30:49
policy urban policy by making fun of
30:52
people now we don’t always we can’t
30:54
always connect the dots and say oh yeah
30:56
play X you know influence policy why the
30:59
next year right but do certain local
31:03
characters who get made fun of again and
31:05
again the one possible thing where we
31:09
can say it’s a smoking gun as you know
31:11
is the clouds of Aristophanes yes where
31:14
he makes fun of Socrates Socrates some
31:19
twenty four years later is upon trial
31:22
for corrupting the youth and in his
31:24
defense speech Socrates says you know
31:26
why you put me on trial
31:28
it’s that play of Aristophanes that you
31:30
all saw back in twenty four years ago
31:33
that made fun of Socrates that’s really
31:36
what here against me isn’t it so maybe
31:39
it worked there they put Socrates to
31:41
death because many of the jurors
31:43
probably had seen the play or their
31:45
parents in the play and they thought of
31:47
Socrates in these Peres distich
31:51
satirical ways right as a kind of prank
31:54
Wow but it but it took twenty four years
31:58
to get to that point though it’s not
31:59
like it was we saw the player then yeah
32:02
that’s right they don’t rush out with
32:04
torches and thanks we’re gonna burn down
32:06
socrates house right yeah yeah Wow also
32:12
it’s complicated by the fact that we’re
32:14
pretty sure Socrates and Aristophanes
32:16
were friends in the work of Plato the
32:20
symposium they’re all at a dinner party
32:22
together so it we’re not really sure I
32:25
have other ideas on what might have been
32:27
going on there but it doesn’t seem to be
32:31
Aristophanes is out to take down it
32:34
would be like somebody today what
32:37
putting Bill Clinton on trial because of
32:39
a comedy that was produced in night yeah
32:43
yeah or maybe even that the movie the
32:49
American president goes yeah it was
32:53
Michael Douglas
32:54
presidential character who falls in love
32:56
with or has an affair with I forget
32:58
which now annette bening is character or
33:02
something like that
33:04
yuria right right and and then using
33:08
there was another movie with John
33:10
Travolta back in the day I forget the
33:12
name of it and he was primary colors and
33:14
he played a character that everyone was
33:16
basically said it was Clinton so it’s
33:19
not alright and it yeah and I didn’t see
33:22
the movie or read the novel that it was
33:24
based on but it everyone was sort of
33:27
saying at the time it was like a Clinton
33:29
character so it essentially be like Bill
33:32
Clinton being put on trial now because
33:34
of that jervey
33:35
or him reading the movie right which
33:38
seems unlikely then again yes to have
33:41
long long memories and a history of
33:44
vengeance but I think there are a lot of
33:47
other things going on it didn’t help
33:50
that Socrates was supporting some people
33:52
who were thought to be against democracy
33:57
so in after the the Athenians lose the
34:03
war with Sparta in 404 right you know
34:05
lots of ill feelings come out okay so
34:11
they say they lost the war and and that
34:15
was in the final decades of of Athens
34:19
right you were saying and then what
34:20
happened after that well you know it’s
34:23
an interesting thing we think of it as
34:25
old Athens is gone but yeah the Athenian
34:29
basic functions of the Athenian
34:32
democracy kept going they had however
34:37
overlords or overseers who were Spartans
34:41
and and other allies of Spartans so the
34:46
Athenians don’t really get totally taken
34:51
over by an outside power until the later
34:55
fourth century when the Great’s people
35:01
I’ve just I’ve just lost you there again
35:04
professor sorry yep we break it up again
35:07
yeah
35:07
sorry about that eh yeah it’s kind of
35:11
wonky reception here my shoulder was but
35:15
that’s okay I’m saying is that Athens
35:17
continues and they continue producing
35:19
tragedies and comedies for a couple of
35:22
hundred years and we know that there
35:25
were many comedians and comic writers
35:27
after Aristophanes yeah like his son oh
35:30
okay he had three sons and they all
35:33
produce comedies unfortunately we don’t
35:34
have any of those comedies and and then
35:37
in the three 20s BC Menander starts a
35:42
kind of new form which we call new
35:45
comedy and it’s basically sitcom I it’s
35:48
totally unlike the old stuff right but
35:51
so comedy keeps going Aristophanes
35:53
produced at least two plays in the
35:55
fourth century in 391 and in probably
35:58
388 or so two of his later plays there
36:02
for most people they’re a little bit
36:04
less funny than the fifth century plays
36:06
okay but he’s still at work right right
36:11
and Athens keeps going yeah yeah Athens
36:16
has its courts and its assembly and in
36:20
the theater and were you saying that
36:22
they were they were they were taken over
36:24
by someone well there’s you know a lots
36:29
of seesaw action the they have after 404
36:34
they have Spartan overseers I mean it’s
36:38
not like a regime of you know jackbooted
36:40
Spartans come in and shut things down
36:43
hmm
36:44
they had a very light touch and after
36:46
all they are all Greeks right then later
36:50
in the fourth century a regime which is
36:56
basically associates and descendants of
36:59
Alexander the Great
37:01
takes over and they have a certain
37:04
killing effect but they still support
37:07
the Arts and and then Athens you know
37:10
becomes a sort of backwater and but even
37:13
through the time of the Roman Empire
37:15
it’s still the place you send your kids
37:17
to to go to the university as where
37:20
the Roman elite get educated in Athens
37:23
Wow but they’re not they’re not
37:24
producing new plays you know in the
37:28
first century AD as far as we know
37:31
they’re rerunning a lot of the old ones
37:33
right right
37:34
interesting interesting okay I think
37:40
that’s that’s pretty much it from what I
37:42
wanted to go over with you this has been
37:46
very enlightening for me well it’s
37:49
always fun to try to spread the word
37:51
about this stuff right yeah absolutely
37:54
one of the essentially I’ve got one one
37:57
final question I wanted to ask you and
38:02
that question is this knowing what you
38:04
know about Aristophanes is work and you
38:09
know the the modern-day comparisons that
38:11
we we mentioned earlier do you do you
38:14
feel there are any lessons that you wish
38:18
modern comedies or modern comedians
38:20
could learn from his work and I’m and
38:23
what I mean beyond just doing an
38:25
adaptation yeah yeah it’s a wonderful
38:30
question and I did think about this and
38:32
you know what I did to help me
38:35
crystallize my thoughts I looked at a
38:38
Google 10 best comedies right yeah and
38:41
there’s tons and tons of listicles about
38:44
almost all of those comedies like
38:47
airplane or anchorman hour it kind of
38:52
stringing together of little funny
38:55
things right yeah so they’re jokey
38:59
they’re not particularly overtly
39:02
political and they lack the number one
39:05
thing that our Safa news was brilliant
39:07
at which is the great idea Charlie
39:11
Chaplin I think was better a great idea
39:13
place by this I mean you know there’s
39:16
the piece of Aristophanes the character
39:19
has a great idea to mount a gigantic
39:23
dung beetle and fly to heaven to
39:28
confront Zeus or the Akane ins right the
39:31
Hierapolis has a great idea to go make
39:34
his own private piece with the Spartans
39:36
or the birds two Athenians have a great
39:40
idea to go to the edge of the world and
39:42
found another city-state out there where
39:45
the birds are so these great ideas give
39:47
you a real parabola comic plot which
39:52
takes you through the whole play and the
39:55
one that I thought of that it was a kind
39:57
of great idea play although it it’s more
40:00
the character doesn’t have agency is
40:03
Groundhog Day yes you know so it’s a
40:05
high concept he his dilemma is to escape
40:09
Groundhog Day and but we don’t really
40:14
have great idea comedies and if you
40:17
could combine a great idea comedy with a
40:19
political point maybe wag the dog is the
40:23
closest we yeah we come to that right
40:26
right and what about something like I
40:30
know we’re going back to Chaplin but the
40:32
Great Dictator yeah did that’s a good
40:36
example where you know he there’s a lot
40:39
of parody there’s a lot of political
40:43
content obviously yeah when you have
40:45
Chaplin as Hitler and the the great idea
40:50
I can’t frankly remember whether it
40:53
succeeds or not I think maybe I think in
40:56
modern times instead but yes Chaplin
40:58
generally he got that concept of the
41:01
kind of high concept one big thing we’re
41:05
going to do and then the little guy wins
41:08
which is another arista fanuc motif
41:11
right right because you may you
41:14
mentioned Groundhog Day and my knowledge
41:18
of the of the development of that
41:21
screenplay was that at some point it the
41:25
story was supposed to span a thousand
41:27
years oh yeah yeah yeah and obviously
41:32
they went can’t do that we’ll just you
41:34
know knock it all down and there’s no
41:35
reference to it but it might have been
41:38
interesting from an era Stefanik point
41:40
of view to have that concept that the
41:44
whole thing that takes place over a
41:46
thousand years maybe yeah
41:48
yep yep exactly I think Aristophanes if
41:51
he was in the writers room would say no
41:53
no no don’t don’t shrink it let’s go big
41:55
right right so they they were crazy guys
42:00
you can imagine and they know what the
42:03
rival comedian is trying to put on it
42:06
reminds me of that movie about Gilbert
42:09
and Sullivan maybe now about 20 years
42:11
ago and the sort of the feel of having
42:16
you know putting on a musical in London
42:18
or light opera and knowing what you’re
42:21
competing against and plotting and and
42:23
going around you know stealing people’s
42:25
props and that kind of stuff that’s what
42:27
my movie about Aristophanes would be
42:30
most like was that the movie topsy-turvy
42:33
you were talking about yeah that’s the
42:35
one yeah
42:37
got it okay Wow okay that’s really
42:40
interesting so having an having a really
42:44
big idea that connects to a lot of
42:47
people having a man having to keep it a
42:51
secret so that your rival doesn’t scoop
42:53
you on the idea and win the prize and I
43:00
still insist though seriously at this
43:02
could the life of Aristophanes could be
43:04
a great movie
43:05
there was one a put-on I think BBC had
43:10
it called I Aristophanes but it was it
43:14
was not great it was a sort of one-man
43:16
show achieved yeah it seems a lot of the
43:19
times when they do something like that
43:21
you know they they they they just take
43:24
an idea going oh yeah this is
43:25
Aristophanes or yeah this is I don’t
43:27
know say Moliere and then they they just
43:30
do you know they just do something else
43:32
entirely and you think well there’s all
43:33
this material real material about this
43:35
person’s life and you just completely
43:37
ignored it exactly and then you’re just
43:40
using this name because a handful of
43:43
people might know who that is right you
43:45
know or maybe more so in France with
43:48
Moliere I’m not sure but you know it
43:50
seems a shame that you I think you’re
43:51
right you know there could be a really
43:53
interesting era Stefanik movie about him
43:56
yep John using staged bits of the plays
44:01
and
44:01
you know just going over the top there’s
44:03
no reason we can’t have that except we
44:06
don’t have millions of dollars to
44:08
produce it at the moment right and it
44:12
would it could be done like an era
44:13
Stefanik play yeah the whole thing would
44:17
have the sort of parabola that Athens
44:21
itself has as a democracy and which in
44:24
me form you could yeah I’m just I’m just
44:30
losing the baby whoops that’s all right
44:33
hello yeah yeah but you know this is
44:36
just to fantasize about yeah go ahead
44:39
I want to do it okay so just just you
44:47
know do a movie about his life like one
44:50
of his plays would have been yeah right
44:54
yeah really really interesting okay I
44:58
think that’s that’s pretty much all I
45:00
wanted to ask you really you’ve been
45:03
you’ve been more than generous with your
45:05
time I really truly appreciate it well
45:07
it’s so good to talk to someone
45:09
knowledgeable about comedy and and with
45:12
interest and when good luck with all of
45:14
that thank you know if at any point I
45:16
can advise I’m happy to shoot emails
45:19
back and forth or talk wonderful
45:21
wonderful I really I really appreciate
45:23
that you know my thing is you know you
45:26
know inspired by the last question that
45:28
I asked you I’ve saw a number of
45:30
articles over the summer saying comedy
45:33
was dead you know at the box office
45:35
things we need to do things differently
45:37
you know and I’ve been thinking about it
45:40
for about a year or so you know there
45:42
are a number of things that I really
45:43
enjoy you know I like comedy that way
45:46
that swears I like cursing I like all
45:49
the rules enough but I also like other
45:51
things I like coward I like restoration
45:55
I like Shakespeare and you know I was
45:58
thinking selfishly that I don’t feel all
46:02
my tastes are being catered to yeah and
46:06
I figured I can’t be the only person and
46:08
and that’s what my initial idea came
46:11
from and I thought well there’s got to
46:13
be other and then I thought about the
46:14
history of comedy and gem
46:16
and I thought war is it interesting you
46:18
know I do comedy or today’s comedy
46:21
writers and comedians how much of an
46:23
awareness do we have about our ancestry
46:26
our our history is there anything we can
46:29
learn do people like yourself have this
46:33
information and you’ll sit in the going
46:35
I wish that they would just do X and it
46:38
would take it somewhere else you know I
46:40
think they just learned you know
46:43
something that Aristophanes had which is
46:45
why I asked you that question you know
46:47
it would take the comedy somewhere else
46:49
it would take it to a different level or
46:51
whatever that is so I thought well you
46:54
know as a passion project for me to try
46:58
to connect with as many different people
47:00
who have expertise whether it’s
47:02
performers directors authors or
47:05
professors like yourself in these
47:07
different areas and then just put that
47:10
information out there yeah I think
47:12
that’s wonderful I agree we need a kind
47:14
of comic Renaissance right and you know
47:18
the stuff that I find funniest these
47:19
days is frankly Family Guy and Robot
47:25
Chicken on the familiar with both of
47:28
those but you know I think they have a
47:31
certain amount of just wild obscene
47:34
energy that the rest of the profession
47:38
could use but by the same token you know
47:41
here they are sort of get a wised on
47:43
late-night TV and and not out there with
47:46
a live audience of 5,000 people so
47:50
bringing back the kind of social
47:53
activist aspects of or just huge live
47:57
publicity of comedy I think that could
47:59
be a shot in the arm yeah and I
48:02
appreciate that tastes change trends
48:05
change and things move on but then
48:07
there’s all this history is just lying
48:09
about the place well laying around the
48:12
place and this is sort of there and we
48:14
just seem to keep reinventing the wheel
48:16
and hey I come up with something it’s
48:18
surrealism well guess what that stuff’s
48:20
been around for thousands of years yeah
48:23
yeah we need a comic University majoring
48:27
in comic studies
48:29
right I would be happy to be the Dean of
48:32
such a point is a great idea yeah yeah
48:37
well best of luck as I say and thank you
48:40
for taking the time and I look forward
48:44
to the results no no problem tool again
48:46
thank you very much for your time I
48:48
really appreciate it okay you’re welcome
48:50
good you to think right now this is at
48:54
the end of this interview if you’d like
48:56
to hear more interviews please check out
48:57
our website comedy Q&A com
49:00
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49:02
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49:05
much for listening
49:05
[Music]
49:21
you
