00:00 hello my name is Jason Peck and here is the00:11comedy Q&A interview with author00:14Beatrice Otto she’s the author of the00:16book Falls are everywhere it’s just an00:19audio interview but it is really well00:22worth a listen hi hello hi how are you00:29doing I’m well Beatrice how are you very00:31well thank you st and that included00:34classical Chinese mhm and while doing00:37that00:37I came across some biographies of court00:40jesters that were written about 100 BC00:44by a Chinese historian and they were so00:48Lively and they were exactly what we00:51recognized as a court jester if you00:53think of Leah’s fool you are sort of00:56standard Western archetype mm-hmm the00:58same role they criticized the Emperor01:02they found funny ways to do that to01:04correct behavior or change behavior and01:06I thought well this is interesting that01:08it’s really how we think of them but we01:11think of them solely in a European01:13context right and from that I had this01:15idea well maybe I could compare the01:18Chinese jester say to the English and01:21French jester that was the beginning of01:23it mm-hmm01:24and once icon going and I started01:26following every lead I could find I01:27thought this is bigger this is more01:29about whether this is some kind of01:32universal archetype right so then I then01:35I just let rip and looked everywhere I01:38could find them five years so as a yeah01:45colleague said it should have been01:46called no stone unturned ah yes nice I01:53like that and so roughly you know in in02:01your book you make reference obviously02:03you just sort of clarify that you were02:05studying Chinese and he found a book02:07written in 100 BC or about 100 BC right02:11yeah02:13and you may reference to discovering02:16these ancient anecdotes about the02:17Chinese jesters so are there other the02:21ancient Chinese jesters are they the02:24earliest that we know of in world02:28history it’s a good question I think02:31from what I found though if you take02:34five years – no stone unturned yeah kind02:37of a research process so far I haven’t02:41found any from other traditions that are02:43specific so in other words I think the02:46references to these these Chinese02:48historical jesters yes it’s probably the02:51earliest we have of a specific named02:53jester just a Joe doing such and such02:57working for so and so he said such and02:59such that doesn’t mean they were the03:02earliest jesters and I think there’s03:04some very interesting work going on with03:07regards03:07ancient Egypt and also with regards03:11Mesopotamia yeah and it seems and I’ve03:14just been reading about it in03:16Mesopotamia there’s a word that seems to03:19refer to a profession that could be it03:21like a jester okay and that’s dating03:25from basically the third millennium BC03:28so going back really a long way yeah03:31where’s the first Chinese one I have03:34named you know named specific gesture is03:36the seventh century BC so if you go back03:39another whatever two-plus thousand years03:41a bit less and there’s they’ve got a03:45text actually written a written text in03:48which this character is a protagonist03:50and he does seem to be like a jester he03:53seems affiliated with the palace or with03:55the temple taking the mickey out of03:58literary types or jar and making people04:02laugh and so on04:03so I don’t think you can stand and say04:05yes we’ve got our first gesture but it04:10certainly looks like a possibility and04:12then in Egypt I think what’s interesting04:14is they clearly seem to have had04:17dwarfism04:22contr are right and that’s often a saw04:26from which justice comes so there’s no04:28reason that they they’re references04:32specific references to Dwarfs dancing04:34dwarfs and so on and that to me is a04:37natural pool from which a gesture type04:40person could emerge got it04:42so we potentially but don’t we’re not a04:47hundred percent with Mesopotamia but04:50there is potentially something there I04:52think so yeah okay and now forget04:56forgive my seeming ignorance when we’re05:00talking about ancient Egypt ancient05:02China in terms of chronology ancient05:06China were you know things were you’re05:09specifically studying happened earlier05:12than ancient Egypt right no no later05:14four days later yes yes later so it was05:18Egypt and then and then ancient China05:22yeah that’s right got it okay four05:25jesters and there and did you have did05:27you in your turning over the stones did05:32you find nothing in ancient Egypt only05:35as found nice nice images of Dwarfs like05:41sculptures and so on and one letter from05:44an official to a pharaoh saying Here I05:47am in such and such a place and I found05:49this dancing dwarf and mid Pharaoh says05:51we’ll bring him you know bring him for05:53the court and that’s for me the first05:57reference that you say that pay that05:59could have been a gesture type right06:02because my if my recollection is correct06:05there there were they were refer to as06:08natural door natural gestures is that06:10right or natural else not that for me is06:14very much a European concept and06:17phenomenon and and term and the naturals06:20what they called Naturals in Europe06:22would be people with some sort of mental06:24disability right rather than a physical06:27disability on it okay so so you’ve got06:30basically in many parts of the world06:33where there were just as there were also06:35Dwarfs and sometimes one was a dwarf06:38could be a jester all but not06:40so it was quite common to have Dwarfs or06:43even Hunchback say connected with the06:45court and so on but this phenomenon of06:48having so-called natural fool in other06:51words somebody with some kind of mental06:53disability yeah seems to have been06:55really European I haven’t found that06:59anywhere else07:00got it okay which is mm-hmm okay so so07:05so just a sort of round off this section07:07just from my own my own understanding07:10you’ve got the Mesopotamia potentially07:13around the seventh century of BC is that07:15right no that’s the Chinese oh that’s07:18for Chinese I must say Miam won the07:21first references to this character and07:23the word is a lousy new which I’m sure07:26we can make a cartoon character out of a07:28name like that seems to be from this07:31early second millennium BC second07:34millennium got it yeah okay I’m just I’m07:40just frantically scribbling notes here I07:43think we need to clearly we need to do a07:45global timeline well funny you should07:51say that as well something I’m trying to07:53I’m trying to put something you know07:55just just very broadly generally put07:58something together you know and you know08:01I’m not sure if I mentioned this in our08:03previous communications but what I’m08:06trying to do with this project just08:07briefly is to make sure it it’s08:12obviously you know I’m European and you08:15know my perspective is quite European08:18but I’m trying not to have this project08:21be euro centric as much as I can I’m08:25trying to you know look at because08:27there’s a world and there are different08:30cultures and countries that are beyond08:32the UK US and and may have Europe so you08:36know I’m trying to you know look at a08:39broader picture here as best I can08:41and sort of you know one influences the08:44other and maybe not and maybe they’re08:46sort of you know something I’ve been08:47thinking about recently is something08:49called parallel thinking I’m not sure if08:50you’ve come across this so08:53parallel thinking in my experience I08:55have a background doing stand-up comedy08:58and parallel thinking this where two09:02comedians or even even in sort of like09:05screenplay writing you know there are09:07sort of two scripts or two movies that09:09sort of crop up but they crop up09:11completely independently yeah they don’t09:14know the existence or the other example09:16I can give you is I was about 14 or 1509:19just started writing stand-up comedy for09:21the first time this is in the early 90s09:25and there was an Irish comedian called09:27Dave Allen who was I remember great09:31there was I was very much a fan and I09:34did a finger missing right that’s right09:37that’s right on it yeah he had the top09:40part of his index finger I think it was09:43in his left her right hand missing09:45that’s right but any any and just as a09:47side note he never gave there was never09:50a definitive reason of how that happened09:53each time it came up in an interview it09:56was a divot he gave particular an09:57explanation anyway so so I had this idea10:02about in my experience going to the soup10:08supermarkets as a teenager with my10:10mother10:10it seemed that every time I went there10:13would be a parent with a new child and10:16the child would be crying and my idea10:18was why why do parents take their10:21children to supermarkets just so they10:23could cry you know there was something10:25there and and it seemed like you know we10:30don’t want their children to cry at home10:31just keep quiet just for a few seconds10:33let’s jump in the car let’s get at the10:35supermarket and you can cry all you want10:36in the supermarket and that was10:38essentially my idea and ivory over it10:40was really I was like wow this is a10:42really great idea10:43and then one evening I sat down and I10:45switched the TV on a Dave Allen whatever10:48the show was at the time and there in10:50front of me was Dave Allen doing this10:52routine and there was no way I could10:57have known that he was doing it yeah you11:00know I you know I grew up in a small11:03village on the south coast of England11:05there’s just no11:06there was no way I had seen him live11:09doing it or any other way it was so that11:12was for me a personal example of you11:14know parallel thinking where two people11:16I don’t know how it happens sort of come11:19up with it’s similar ideas and so my11:22point being that I think you know11:24sometimes you know in term prod Li in11:27terms of you know like gestures or11:29whatever other comedic movements11:31sometimes one definitely you can see11:33definitely impacts the other sort of11:35yeah if we’re looking at the Greek11:39playwright Greek and Roman playwrights11:41Menander11:41Terence and plautus those guys there was11:43definite impact on you know later11:46playwrights like Moliere and Shakespeare11:48because they were definitely cribbing11:49plots but in terms of like things just11:53manifesting somehow you know yeah you11:56know I you know they’re good they11:58certainly could be incidences I think of12:00that happening you know in one culture12:02and there’s no other way that at the12:05time because there’s you know that we12:06don’t they don’t didn’t have the12:07communication that we have now or the12:09ability to travel you know it sort of12:12fascinates me that how one could sort of12:14an idea or you know or or a type of12:18individual could crop up in one culture12:21and then also crop up in a completely12:22different culture without even knowing12:26yes and I think that we do see it in the12:29gesture context and as you say there are12:31certain areas where you have a pretty12:34good idea that they’re feeding into each12:35other we joked about the Roman mimes12:37eventually feeding into the whole12:39European tradition and so on but I think12:42there’s also enough to at least suppose12:46that some of these traditions of jesters12:49did spring up independently I think the12:51Chinese one well I don’t think they had12:53much contact with Mesopotamia right so I12:57think and not just the tradition as a13:00whole but also interestingly I’ve found13:02one or two kind of skits or stories or13:06anecdotes about jesters in Europe you13:08can find the same story and it gets13:10pegged to different jesters hmm so it13:13becomes just like a gag that you just13:16pegged to a different famous gesture13:18right13:19but there are a couple of instances13:20where I found stories in China and then13:24you see the same story in India and you13:27say okay there was a lot of traffic13:29through Buddhism no crossing between13:33India and China it’s possible it was13:35somehow somebody just a merchant just13:37took the story with him yeah all these13:40stories they are archetypes yes the13:43stories are about archetypes they’re13:45making fun of certain types of people13:48certain yeah caricatures in a way so13:51then it’s understandable if they do crop13:53up into independently of one another13:55mm-hmm but it is a very interesting13:57topic right absolutely I think I think14:00this something I don’t know if I don’t14:04know comforting is the correct word for14:06it but there’s something you know just14:09the just the under you know my14:12understanding of you know think this14:15sort of thing happening in different14:17cultures you know to a degree14:18independently you know there’s something14:20you know I let’s go with the word14:22comforting about there being people to14:26always mock and critique and criticize14:29you know and sort of say well hang on a14:32minute you know that’s not true or why14:34you know yeah let’s let’s walk this and14:37it sort of you know there’s always that14:39in sort of different various different14:42cultures and societies you know14:44throughout history it’s also it’s also14:47comforting that in many cases the powers14:51that be tolerated it right hey some some14:55way I was reading this morning just in14:57preparing for this I was having a quick14:59look at some of the references to kind15:01of mime actors taking on a bit of a15:03jester role with the Roman emperors15:05right and there’s a reference that I’d15:08forgotten about Nero who’s not the most15:11tolerant of any yes yes and Suetonius15:13says he’s he was particularly lenient to15:17the people who attacked him with guides15:20and Lampoon’s Oh interest that’s kind of15:23I mean narrow wasn’t particularly Mian15:26to anybody he’s right right and and15:30that’s interesting when you have some15:33autocratic to put it mildly people15:35mm-hmm who had life-and-death power and15:38they would somehow tolerate at least one15:42or two people yeah saying anything they15:45felt like as if they maybe there’s some15:46sense of at some level I need this15:48otherwise I’ve completely lose touch and15:51lose the plot yeah possibly yeah I mean15:53it’s quite interesting that they never15:54got the thumbs down right15:57they sometimes they got they did they16:00sometimes got banished or whatever but16:04to me it’s surprising how little they16:06got the thumbs down yes yes and what I16:11do what I just sort of think about it I16:15just wanted to try to get some16:17clarification or we all your16:18perspectives really what would you say16:20the difference between a clown and a16:23jester is I think for me many of the16:29talents the skills would be the same so16:33they’re probably drawing on the same16:35pool of skills and techniques and so on16:37but I think for me the difference is the16:40gesture is normally in a relationship16:43with the person or the people in power16:46right and that kind of singles him out16:50and with that is this understanding of a16:54certain license to criticize yes and16:57that doesn’t mean to me that all jesters17:00criticized and told the truth boldly17:02likely as fool they didn’t necessarily17:03right nor does it mean that clowns can’t17:06do so but clowns in general they don’t17:09seem affiliated to a person in power17:11they seem more free-ranging and perhaps17:15their affiliation they’re more dispersed17:17in society and have a more more of a17:20broader societal role like comedians or17:23cartoonists got it so that to me is the17:26perhaps the key difference okay but17:31there were some circumstances work as17:34clowns circus clowns actually took on17:37that jesters role so for example in the17:4019th century Russian circus there were17:43some clowns17:43they weren’t speaking directly17:46to the Tsar or whoever but they were17:49criticizing very vocally right speaking17:55out in the circus using the circus arena17:57to to criticize so they were taken and18:00and then just one example was a u.s.18:02circus clown in the 19th century called18:05Dan Rice who apparently was like a kind18:08of unofficial jester to Lincoln huh so18:11it seemed that yeah this it’s a fluid18:14boundary put it that way yes yes18:16interesting interesting okay okay great18:20thank you for that and you know I we18:26don’t I just wanted to I wanted to try18:32to find out what now what Jess is always18:35attached to a court in in during history18:39or were they you know yet potentially18:44attached a sort of merchants or18:45businessmen as well actually I don’t18:51know of any specifically attached to18:53merchants or businessmen but they but it18:56could be just somebody powerful so it18:58could be a cardinal right or a bishop19:01yeah it didn’t have to be the court as19:03in King it could be or it could be a19:05lesser noble a Duke or whatever whatever19:08I okay perfect so yeah somebody in a19:12position of power and there’s no reason19:15that if you were a powerful let’s say19:19Renaissance Italian businessman reason19:24you wouldn’t have a fool right okay so19:27he would be kind of like a part of your19:30entourage yeah and you think if you19:35think of some of the small Italian19:36city-states like Ferrara and mantou and19:40Sun they had jesters they were Nobles19:43they were the Marquess other whatever or19:45the Duke or whatever they had jesters19:48and then the the journey from there to19:51being a like a Medici you know bankers19:54who became nobles the Medici were Nobles19:59but19:59they were also businessmen very serious20:03businessmen got it okay and what they20:09have had with their backgrounds been20:12what were their backgrounds been like20:15looking globally and China and Europe I20:20think a very common background would be20:22something musical like you might start20:25saying China they had as part of the20:27whole package of entertainment in the20:30court they had something at one time20:32called the court entertainments Bureau20:34at another time called the music Bureau20:37and several jesters came from there so20:40you might start out as a musician or20:42being trained as a musician and then you20:44just happen to have the gift yeah right20:47so you sort of naturally progressed and20:50so there are a lot of references20:52everywhere I look there are a lot of20:54references to jesters who played a20:56musical instrument right and there’s an20:59interesting one for example in the court21:01account books in England where you’ve21:03got a looter some not somebody who’s the21:16looter and then you see him in that you21:17know he maybe gets a shilling or21:19whatever in the court account books and21:20then a few lines later is what the fool21:22so you think is this the same guy who21:25played the loop but then started21:27cracking jokes and yeah they said okay21:30is more like a fool who plays the lute21:32than a lootus – yeah places a fool haha21:35so I think music is very common so it’s21:39almost like that like the strolling21:42players then that yes yes because I21:47could see also its strolling if you’re21:49thinking of itinerant yeah trubel’s or21:53whatever yeah they could be maybe they21:55weren’t based in the court they might be21:56passing through they bring a little21:58entertainment they tell stories they22:00crack jokes it’s so it’s a continuum22:03it’s not a disparate set of skills right22:07so and another common perhaps background22:11is certainly in Europe22:13was some kind of connection with poetry22:15could mean you’re a poet it could mean22:17you’re a bard or a Nordic scowled as22:21they called them a kind of bardic22:23character yeah in in Irish literature22:26you have often the the poet was a very22:28strong character who could really22:31influence behavior he could criticize he22:34could speak out and and then if you turn22:37that into a jester who’s sort of making22:39up daft little rhymes and use like that22:43to communicate or get a point across so22:46the the the name that sort of jumps into22:50my mind with this is the the figure22:53allan-a-dale I’m I think he was part of22:59the the Robin Hood myth oh okay legend23:02okay okay this is I’m laughing because23:08this riff reveals my level ever23:10education my own he experienced with him23:12is through the Disney’s Robin Hood movie23:15from 1973 there they are all animals and23:26he I my recollection is that he was a23:28rooster he’s the narrator of the story23:32and so that’s my you know yeah I don’t I23:39don’t recall him in there and the Kevin23:41Costner movie or the Russell Crowe23:43version but certainly the Disney the23:47Disney version was a rooster and you23:52know and I mention it because he had the23:55loot he would walk around he was he23:57narrated the story and so you know when24:03we would you would just sort of talking24:05about that he popped into my head and I24:07thought well it seemed like then you24:10know it was almost like allan-a-dale24:12would then evolved into you know we24:16start off he his job would be the you24:18know narrating something or playing the24:19loops and then he’s found that he had24:22the gift of the gap and he was24:23gasps oh and it sort of escalated from24:25there I think it’s quite organic and24:28then another side that’s perhaps that24:32you’d find in the sort of worldwide24:33context yes is this physical dissapoint24:36deformity whether it’s a dwarf or a24:38hunchback or something they would have a24:42kind of channel to enter the into the24:44court and it could be on a kind of24:46servant basis or morphing into a jester24:50basis so there’s a lot of overlap there24:52and then in Europe the other side we’ve24:55talked about is this natural fools24:57element yes and there you get a sense25:00sometimes the recruitment was very25:02organic like you’re just trotting25:05through a village and you meet a guy in25:07the village from a poor background and25:10he’s there’s something funny about him25:11maybe he’s physically got something25:13quirky or mentally quirky and you25:16proposed to the king you see I met this25:18guy he’s really fun character yeah and25:22the kid might say well bring him along25:23and then he’ll become your jester and so25:27there’s this very informal sort of25:28talent spotting if you want to view it25:33that way yeah interesting so the dough25:41now shifting sort of slightly over into25:44Europe for a moment be the earliest25:46court jester the very earliest European25:48court jesters now are we finding them in25:53Rome ain’t enroller ain’t Rome and25:59probably we could say Greece as well26:01through and my impression is there again26:05a couple of channels but let’s talk26:06about rogues I’ve got a bit more meat on26:09that one yeah in Rome one is the dwarf26:13root like elsewhere yes that there were26:16Dwarfs in noble households and that was26:18fairly accepted and normal and appealing26:21and so on so from there you you could26:24then have this jester ish character26:26emerge the probably the another main26:29source was also the mime actors and the26:33mimes often from the stage would improve26:36quite severe criticism mocking taking26:40the mickey out of the powers-that-be and26:42so on so that’s another element we know26:45for example or Gustus and Hadrian they26:47like to have those mines in the court so26:50that to me is probably been I can26:52imagine the main pool from which gesture26:55ish characters would emerge and then27:00you’ve got the plays like Plautus where27:02they often have a slave who behaves just27:06like a jester27:07he’s completely irreverent he won’t shut27:09up because there’s one I was just27:11reading about this morning from Plautus27:13where he gets beaten for speaking out27:17too much and he says something like this27:18is scandalous how can you beat somebody27:21who’s giving you good advice you know27:24they’ve got that irrepressible ‘ti and27:27so on so that’s another perhaps another27:29angle on that right but there isn’t a27:31neat word like jester I think it’s a27:34mixture of all these these possibilities27:37okay so there would have been overlaps27:41then with the works of Terence and27:44plautus I think so and I can see that27:48those slave characters would have been27:50quite recognizable right I mean I did27:53like a jester there even formerly there27:55in an inferior position but they don’t27:58let that shut them up right I mean I28:01guess it makes sense really because you28:03know we have comedians and clowns and28:06plays and movies today and they are28:09separate and then there are overlaps28:11with comedians appearing in movies and28:13so on so I guess it makes sense you know28:16that you know that they would what you28:19know exist in you know conjunction with28:21each other and there could potentially28:23be overlaps yes and I think those some28:27of those early mime plays that aren’t28:29necessarily written down there was only28:30a bit like commedia dell’arte you know28:33improvisation and start characters and28:36so they were it seems they were28:38perceived as an outlet for the Roman28:41people to express their political views28:43it was a way of getting your message28:45across just as in the Elizabethan Court28:48you could use a court mask28:50to criticize and get a message across to28:54the Queen and she could signal that she28:56got the message and whether she was28:57going to act in light or not she would28:59decide right so that and and for example29:03with Augustus he apparently criticized a29:05mime actor not for criticizing him but29:09for flattering him29:10this seems some sort of element of you29:13know you’re expected to to criticize29:16right right and and just to be clear29:19from my understanding when we’re talking29:21about the word mine are we talking about29:24performances that are silent no no and29:28it’s good you you raised that the mind29:30that in that context when we tore up my29:33Mac ters it’s mime as in mimicry of life29:36something that’s mimicking or acting out29:40the realities of life rather than Marcel29:44Marceau silent acting got it and also29:49because I think I I think I may have29:52mentioned this before you know in in29:55sort of the you could this is a29:57digression in the UK a little bit in the30:00US and in Australia and Canada we have30:05pantomime which is where it’s more I30:07think there’s a larger theatrical genre30:09in the UK than it is other places but30:12yeah I know that the work which is you30:14know I’m not sure if you know is like a30:19type of you know all-encompassing30:21theatrical performance usually based on30:23fairy stories like Goldilocks or30:26Cinderella and but they’re performed in30:29a like the closest terms I can use this30:35like vaudeville or British Music Hall30:37you know they’ll be slapstick songs you30:39know Brad audience interaction that sort30:42of thing right but then I know that in30:48mainland Europe can’t amine or pantomime30:53is you know it is more for the sort of30:57silent performance oh okay okay maybe31:02the the pantomime you’re speaking about31:04is closer to something like commedia31:06dell’arte yes yeah that’s exactly yeah31:08my understanding is it evolved out of31:11that right and sort of in the 17th and31:141800’s it would have been it would have31:18been like Harlequin a door challah Quinn31:19and here’s the adventures in this you31:22know whatever the story was and then it31:24sort of gradually evolved and the whole31:26Harlequin and Alec Ino commedia31:28dell’arte elements were sort of31:30integrated or or dropped entirely and31:34you know it into its own thing but I31:37just thought I only sort of mentioned31:39that because my experiences of you know31:41having lived and worked in Europe and31:42you know metal and obviously still a lot31:46of met a lot of people from different31:48European countries I just wanted to sort31:50of add that in because you know there’s31:52sometimes there I was getting confused31:54of like for me – silent for me pantomime31:57yeah loud and raucous – completely but32:01Panta mean yes my understanding is it32:04means sort of the the mime silent act32:08okay and and that’s why it was another32:11reason why I wanted to get the32:12clarification for how it was in ancient32:15Rome good good I’m glad you did yeah32:20and would the so would the the the32:24European jesters you know thinking about32:26the ancient Rome would they have had32:28similar cultural and educational32:31backgrounds that we mentioned earlier32:34because when we when we spoke about you32:36know they were looters feeling sense and32:41you mentioned they were musicians and32:44like allan-a-dale32:45were we just space specifically speaking32:48about ancient China and that or were we32:52speaking about European in general I was32:55speaking about Europe in general in32:57China it was commonly this musical32:59entertainment background I don’t know if33:04they we don’t have any evidence so I33:06don’t know but this kind of organic33:09recruitment that you had in Europe yeah33:12where you just trotting through the33:14village and you you meet the the village33:16kid is33:18through din alright and he’s perfect for33:20the court I haven’t seen evidence of33:24that but I haven’t found materials33:25talking about how they were recruited33:27okay right so they and so they they did33:33sort of have similar the Chinese jesters33:35and then the European one sort of33:37ancient Rome did have sort of similar33:40backgrounds that when we’re looking at33:43that you were talking about their the33:45mine actors all the mimics they would33:48have had a similar sort of musical33:49background I don’t know I don’t know if33:52it was just a performance acting33:54background baton so you don’t know but33:57one thing that’s interesting about the33:58the Chinese Court is you had these kind34:01of a single gesture having a close34:04relationship with an emperor you had34:06that model but you also had a model34:09where you had a kind of group of them34:10and it was in a way the prototype of34:14Chinese drama34:15it began with these entertainer jesters34:18who would rather than have one jester34:22step forward and engage with the Emperor34:24to correct his behavior and we have34:26plenty of examples like that these guys34:28would get together and say okay he’s34:31going to introduce attacks that’s just34:33outrageous and it’s going to crush34:35everybody so we need to come up with a34:37little skit and they would make up a34:40little play an impromptu play and they34:43would perform it in front of the Emperor34:45and it would get the point across and34:47that is arguably some experts on Chinese34:51drama would have said that this is34:54really the genesis of Chinese drama34:57right so in that sense you’ve got35:00something in common with the the Roman35:03Minds who might in the context of doing35:07a play or a spontaneous play improvise35:10play they might step out of the script35:12and say by the way you know make some35:14attack on something very topical right35:18okay35:19and now would that would that have had35:21any impact on apparently yeah and well35:27certainly what I don’t have is lots of35:29examples from the Roman side but yeah35:31Chinese35:32quite a lot of examples where it says35:35they did this skit and the Emperor said35:37oh all right yeah yeah and sometimes35:43they say there are few of them where35:45they say the Emperor laughed and35:47rewarded them with a hundred bolts of35:49silk Wow35:51you know he does get the point and this35:54intercession that where their gesture35:57are there is an individual or a group35:58doing a skit where they intercede on36:00behalf of the populace yes that’s quite36:03an important part of their role and in36:06the Chinese context there are quite a36:08few examples of a specific gesture36:10coming forward and getting the Emperor36:14King Duke whatever to change their36:16behavior Wow and succeeding in doing so36:19I there sorry no I I didn’t mean to36:24interrupt I’m sorry no no it’s just36:26going to say a couple of examples one is36:28for example the the King loves hunting36:31and he goes you know he just hunts36:33across whatever land he feels like36:35hunting across and he’s destroying the36:37crops and then the farmers would come to36:40the jester and say you know he’s he’s36:42completely destroying our crops and the36:45jester would find a way to to get that36:48point across to the Emperor so in the36:50Chinese context where the emperor was36:53once very angry because some people came36:55and said you know Your Majesty you are36:57destroying the crops and it’s kind of37:00you know kill that guy for telling me37:03what I can and can’t do hmm and the37:05Jester came forward and said you’re37:07quite right Your Majesty you should37:09execute him immediately it’s outrageous37:12that they don’t let you just hunt as you37:14choose and who cares if you won’t have37:16any tax revenues afterwards because37:18you’ve destroyed the crops and then the37:20King says yes I see the point so they’re37:23quite specific examples like that of37:26that kind of intercession yeah that’s37:29interesting I mean not that I’m what I37:31was thinking was and I mean not that I37:34really want to get too political but I37:37can’t really imagine that this working37:40in a in the UK or the u.s.37:44right now I mean now yeah I mean well37:48I’m not specifically poking fingers at37:51any specific administration I can’t37:53really imagine it working under any US37:56administration you know Clinton Bush37:58Obama Trump you know and I can’t really38:02imagine it having an impact on Thatcher38:05major Blair you know you know Cameron38:10may I I can’t see yeah you know right38:15right you know and it’s a big question38:19and it’s I mean maybe we’ll come to it38:21later in terms of the contemporary38:24context yeah and you know we’ve talked38:27about there was a corporate gesture for38:30a while in the UK didn’t last very long38:32and so on38:33and I remember mentioning this to a38:35friend of mine who is a senior executive38:37in a big global corporation and she said38:40I can tell you there is absolutely no38:43appetite in the business world for this38:45kind of thing38:46mmm there’s just forget it yeah we’re38:50focused on things that matter you know38:52this doesn’t matter so I I know I know38:57because what because our politicians39:00again doesn’t matter what your view is39:02but if you look at say the genie Jean in39:05France it’s because the politicians39:08somehow are not hearing something right39:11there’s like this they’re not hearing39:14something I mean they may be right and39:15everybody else is wrong that’s possible39:17who knows but they’re clearly not39:20hearing a Creed occur yeah same with39:23brexit there is a credit curve in there39:26that’s not necessarily being heard yeah39:30I know and whether you know it what it39:35doesn’t seem like it’s being heard from39:36the people who voted leave and the39:39people who voted will remain right39:42exactly it from my perspective like I39:45said I don’t really want to go down this39:47rabbit hole but from my perspective it39:49doesn’t seem like we’re brexit is right39:52now is what either side wants so no but39:56they’ll both get what39:58right now was gonna get what they want40:02and know all the comedians in all the40:05world you know as a black as a broad40:09generalization I know and I sort of40:11borrowing from Humphrey Bogart there but40:13all the all the comedians are in all the40:15world are making all the jokes and it’s40:18just not landing it’s not connecting40:21they’re not going we’ll hang on with40:23this probably isn’t good for anybody40:24this is not what any you know this is40:26not what leave or remain one although40:28they know that they do but then some40:30people you know I know some people have40:32moved over from the remain camp to the40:35leave camp and then some people have40:36gone from the leave come to the remain40:38camp so you know not pleasing anybody40:41and there’s no one all the comedian’s40:44seem to be pointing this out but it’s40:45not connecting no no it’s not connecting40:49and that’s because they’re not jesters40:51in the sense that yeah they don’t have40:53that direct access and nor does the40:55power people in power want them drive40:58that direct axis so it’s it’s it’s kind41:02of a frustrated outlet rather than a41:05direct action yes and just just on41:09nobody getting what they want just I41:11remember there’s a wonderful historian41:12who wrote one of the best history books41:14I’ve ever read that made me laugh about41:16Germany it’s called Joe Manya and he41:20sums up the 30 Years War as something41:22like nobody got what they wanted and41:25everybody nobody got what they wanted41:41and everybody’s upset but so so you you41:48mentioned that the corporate jess is41:51there I just wanted to be able to if41:52possible just to touch on that briefly41:54you you talk about in your book how41:58there was some business who experimented42:00with having corporate Jess’s I think42:02that was in the 80s or 90s right yeah42:06and and you think it’s you think it’s42:08important and that means something that42:10happened in the UK but if you42:12about I think it fizzled out I mean42:15there was the the the famous one was42:16called birch at ba and he had a CEO that42:20was quite a and his business card said42:23something like corporate gesture and he42:25could just walk around and stick his42:27nose in and ask questions and so on42:30then when they changed yeah then they42:33changed CEO and he said he’s fatefully42:37he’s fatally he said to the new CEO well42:42you know you can’t fire me because42:44otherwise people think you can’t handle42:47it and probably the worst thing you can42:49say yeah and I I did an article recently42:59for an organizational management journal43:01that was sort of tolerant or enlightened43:03enough to let me loose on them in terms43:05of is there a role for this character in43:08organizations today so it’s not just43:10companies it’s yeah NGOs government’s43:12and so on hmm and and I obviously think43:16there is and I think it’s very sadly43:19missing and I even just a job43:20description that people can they just43:23have to cross out you know the CEO or43:25the secretary-general or whatever but I43:30don’t think there’s much appetite I43:33think people sort of say oh yeah that’s43:34a really good idea but would they43:36actually open themselves yeah to that43:39level of criticism right I don’t think43:42right that’s it you know yeah it’s you43:47know amazing how I get I guess a you43:51know a lot of people have really thin43:53skin to that sort of stuff but you know43:55I think you know I think I agree with43:58you you know I’m I have no I have no44:00bias you know towards you or your book44:03with this but I you know having you know44:05had this conversation and then you know44:07it’s actually spoken to a couple of44:08other Jess’s which I think I mention to44:10you I think you know I think something44:13like this is needed44:15hmm not just when we are so many impasse44:18in politics mmm there’s something not44:21giving so they you need somebody to44:24break a logjam44:25yeah and I think if only because they44:28have a bit of an outsider’s perspective44:29right and and a certain flexibility of44:33thinking just that alone or maybe you44:35say well then we just get a good44:36facilitator or a good coach or facility44:41maybe that’s the role of a good coach44:42I’m a facilitator yeah44:44but then would they with a good coach or44:48facilitator have the license to be able44:50to say this is nonsense44:52no because they’re just facilitating44:54right they they can’t pronounce judgment44:57on what’s right if you having to read45:00through your strategy you’re the one45:02that’s got to come up with a strategy45:03yeah and they can elicit that strategy45:05but they can’t say this is load of45:07garbage right nobody nobody likes you45:12you’re the least popular CEO we’ve ever45:15had you know it would wouldn’t it just45:23have some example you gave traditionally45:34in Rome when you know you came back as a45:37great general and you’ve conquered a45:39whole new Suede’s of the world for the45:41Roman Empire and you’ve got your triumph45:44and you’re coming into Rome and you45:45you’re just top of the world that there45:48would be a slave or a mime act or some45:51kind of humble character on the coke45:53carriage with you saying remember you45:55are human yes and and that so it’s46:00interesting when people in power had46:02arguably more power and less46:04accountability yeah there seem to be a46:07recognition that you need somebody to46:08stop you going completely out of into46:11outer space but now we still have people46:16with a lot of power and a lot of ego46:19right and I’m not sure that’s telling46:24right I don’t think there is anyone46:29they seem to you know recent history46:32seem to surround themselves with yes men46:35yeah yeah so so you think it’s needed46:42but we we don’t really have it I don’t46:46think I mean in that article i catched46:49my bet and said of course maybe there46:51are thousands corporate jesters who46:53would just below the radar right right47:01perhaps that’s why there are some47:02businesses that have a massive turnovers47:05exactly and then they just keep firing47:07the people who are basically jesters47:12please he’s not telling me what I want47:14to hear before we move into just sort of47:23the end here I I just wanted to check47:27with you to see if there was anything47:29that you wanted to talk about that we47:31that we haven’t spoke about yet I don’t47:36think so I think we’ve covered a lot of47:38ground we’ve covered the kind of47:40historical spectrum mm-hmm47:42the provenance of jesters where they47:44came from their role some of the47:48distinctions between Europe and beyond47:50Europe there was oh there was something47:54that’s just popped into my mind I this47:57isn’t a question that I had prepared for47:59you so I’m sorry about that I I seem to48:02recall I can’t remember I think I saw it48:05in the in the book or if it’s from a you48:08know our sort of preliminary48:11conversation that we had I think he48:13mentioned that there isn’t in the48:18Chinese language as it currently stands48:20I guess you referring to Mandarin48:23because obviously anything different48:26different languages you know there’s you48:28know Cantonese and so on and different48:30dialects but I seem to recall you sort48:33of saying there isn’t a word for gesture48:35in the Chinese language anymore right48:38there I’d say there is a word for48:40gesture but really if you say if48:42say gesture in English or the48:44equivalents in the Italian French48:46Spanish if you say those words people48:49immediately know what you’re talking48:50about right they’ve got a really vivid48:52image yes if you use the the Chinese48:55term for gesture they kind of see it as48:58actor something like actor or performer49:01and so when I if I’m talking to Chinese49:04people about what I do then I refer to49:05that historian in the 100 BC yes you49:09name him and you say his biographies of49:12jesters and then they go all right and49:15if if you name some of those key jesters49:19it would be like if you say gesture to49:22English people they don’t quite get it49:23you say you know like Leah’s fool they49:25go oh I get it49:27okay so so it’s just I think the word49:30for gesture in Chinese is a very old49:32word it’s from classical Chinese and49:34over time because when the jesters49:37disappeared in the Chinese context it’s49:39they morphed into the acting world so49:42the term for jest has kind of come to49:45mean actor got it okay got it that was49:49my that was my I I had a vague49:50recollection and I sort of yeah I49:52misremembered that so I’m sort of so50:00just sort of as we go into the50:04homestretch I guess mmm I want to ask50:07now this is a question that some people50:12have like oh yes you know some people50:14are so – yes there he was my aunt’s and50:15other people like oh okay so knowing50:20what you know about jesters both both50:23you know ancient China and you know50:26ancient Rome and so forth and in Europe50:29obviously is there a lesson that you50:32feel that modern comedy could learn from50:40those performers that we we don’t seem50:44to be learning what people don’t see me50:45to be it’s like a disconnect do you ever50:47watch a you know for example you ever50:49watch it like a a show or a TV show or a50:52movie or something and you think car50:53this is it if they50:55just did X it could take it into a50:58completely different place do you have51:02it it’s yeah it’s a good question I51:05don’t think I’m not one of the ones says51:07I have the answer because I think the51:10the comedians comedians now to me51:14they’re direct descendants of jesters51:16right so they they probably have the51:20same DNA and they probably use the same51:23techniques instinctively mm-hmm51:26so the only thing I would want from them51:29is that they’d be as fearless as jesters51:33and that they tried use their wit to get51:38close to power so they can perhaps have51:42a word in a few people see it but51:47otherwise I think it’s the same person51:49so I think a person who is a say a51:52stand-up comedian today would have been51:55a great gesture in the past they’ve got51:57all the improvisational skills the51:59interaction the the psychological acuity52:02they need to really read the audience52:04very fast and react to it fast yes the52:09quick-wittedness and and so on so52:11they’ve got all of that so I don’t see52:14particularly there are techniques so52:16they should learn or anything but it’s52:17just you know you have that fearlessness52:20like some of the comedians in by Marr52:23Germany who had the guts to actually52:26criticize oh yeah okay there we go yeah52:30yeah yeah like the night after52:35Kristallnacht is you know they’s broke52:38all the windows of sort of Jewish shops52:40and yes and and people looted and stole52:43jewelry and so one of these clowns52:46actually or comedian sorry appeared52:49onstage draped in jewelry the next day52:52of exam and and said well what do you52:56think I you think I wasn’t busy on52:58Kristallnacht you know wow another one53:00made a comment about Dachau he said53:02they’re building this place is53:04absolutely amazing they’ve got all these53:06watch towers and fence53:07but if they think they can keep me out I53:10know I just have to say one thing and53:12I’ll be I’ll get inside very close to53:17the edge one of them was accused they53:21weren’t Jewish but they spoke up as well53:24as they could and one of them actually53:26had some brown shirts sort of bust in on53:29him and call him Jewish and so on and he53:32said he said you’re mistaken I’m not53:35Jewish I only looked that intelligence53:39so but you know they really when one of53:42them was sent to a concentration camp53:43Wow53:44so talk about fearless yes and I’m just53:50reminded I’m not sure if you’ve seen it53:52there is a show on Netflix right now53:55it’s interesting that’s come out sort of53:58Larry is by a comedy writer and director54:03called Larry Charles the show is called54:07Larry Charles’s dangerous world of54:09comedy I’ve only seen the first episode54:13but he talks to essentially he talks to54:17comedians in Iraq in this episode and54:22there was a guy I’m just trying I’m get54:25his name off the top of my head I’m just54:26trying to look it up but he will they54:30anything he was in Afghanistan as well54:33meaning those guys but I think this this54:36one in particular was in Iraq and I my54:40recollection are probably way off here54:43is that a bunch of you know he was he54:47was into this guy was into comedy54:49watching a lot of shows here Ernie’s he54:53had a very fundamentalist family they54:56kicked him out of the house so then he54:58was essentially homeless and then I55:01think I want to say it was Isis I may be55:03way off and I don’t really want to upset55:06anybody but he was essentially rounded55:09up along with a group of other people55:14and they were you know take march on him55:17through you know a room I think and they55:20were being tortured55:21and so he started making jokes and he55:25had the guards laughing and that and he55:31he was essentially saying you know you55:33torture me if you like but just don’t55:35talk to me too much and and that this55:38was you know a funny thing and you know55:43from what he was saying in the show it55:45sort of worked and Craig he was tortured55:49but he wasn’t tortured to death and55:51credible and he sort of you know I guess55:56got away with it and then you know55:59eventually over I’m not sure over what56:01time period but eventually he ended up56:04you know going o comedy seems to work56:07and then he sort of end ended up doing a56:10show I’m not sure if it’s still on but56:12he ended up doing a show similar to The56:14Daily Show in the u.s. like a nightly56:20yeah a satirical comedy show but he56:24would it sort of go after everybody and56:28in fact my recollection now is I don’t56:30think that I think the show got pulled56:32from rare but it was it was a very56:36similar thing you know that is amazing56:42yeah that’s really impressive yeah and I56:45was watching this I was watching this56:48thinking about my own background was56:49like I just I kind of like making people56:51laugh and like the attention this seems56:57like a thing I could try this I’ll do56:58that56:59and you know okay and there’s this guy57:02going I’m gonna die or I’m gonna make57:04jokes you know you know of jesters like57:12in the Chinese context where the gesture57:14is about to be executed yeah and he57:16cracks a joke because it’s one thing or57:19the others binary you’ve got about ten57:21seconds yeah and that presence of mind57:24firstly the fearlessness yeah57:26secondly the presence of mind to take a57:29deep breath and think of something funny57:30right I mean57:35believable yeah yeah you know and it’s57:39difficult for me to be out of watch that57:40and then not put it in the you know look57:43at my contest mode life as I was saying57:44you know how I and it’s like well I sort57:46of stumbled in stumbled into the you57:49know I like the attention I’m the57:50youngest of four you know it seemed to57:52be maybe I won’t do this anymore58:05I’ll just stick to the what I’m doing58:07right there and and there was also58:10another guy ah here we go58:13just double check his name bassem58:15youssef he was he is an Egyptian58:20comedian and writer but he trained as a58:23physician he was surgeon and he had a58:27show on in Egypt I think it’s called el58:32Burnham egg I’m completely destroying58:36that arrogant Eric over there I know58:38that and it was again similar to the The58:45Daily Show in the US and he was58:48criticizing you know the current58:50government and all that sort of stuff58:51and you know as basically doing the same58:54sort of thing that we were just talking58:56about and then they decided we don’t58:58like what you’re doing you’re done so59:00his show was on between 2011 and 201459:04and they and they pulled the plug59:07essentially but basically doing the same59:10thing59:11criticizing yeah yeah well not quite to59:14their face you know so it’s yeah like I59:16said both of the you know you know59:18bassem youssef show was similar to The59:24Daily Show in that you know you’re on TV59:26you’re criticizing everybody that59:27everything that’s going on so it’s not59:29quite similar to the guy in Iraq59:31criticizing it to their face but it’s59:34obviously upsetting them yeah so it must59:37be hitting home enough right for them to59:41pull the plug right so all hail to these59:45guys yeah yeah Lee yeah59:48yes very much so very much so but it59:51would be we should have like a gesture59:53soft on Pierre59:55you know like journalists and frontiere59:57and medicine so frontier where you going60:00to defend them in tight spots and60:03campaign for their freedom of movement60:05and freedom to do their job right is60:09isn’t that that should be Amnesty60:11International Jeannette great so this60:23has been really really really insightful60:26I really appreciate your time and I I60:31know you’ve just relaunched your website60:35yes would you be able to give me I’m60:38sure you would would you be able to give60:40me that your domain yes fools60:45are everywhere comm pulls it everywhere60:49don’t we’re lucky they are right and60:52that’s the the name of the book as well60:55right yes yes okay and will there be I61:00know you’ve recently launched you a lot61:02of on April Fool’s Day which seemed61:04appropriate enough yes is there61:09supplemental information on the website61:12the supplementals do the book I mean yes61:16yes so one purpose is to drip-feed the61:20wood the material that’s in the book61:21into the website but also to I’ve61:25already started tracking down new61:26materials how Wow61:28or either materials that didn’t make it61:30into the book in the first place or61:32materials that have been emerging since61:34and I found some very interesting things61:36like you I’m trying to redress the61:39balance or the imbalance in terms of a61:41Eurocentric view of jesters yeah so I61:45that’s where I found this Mesopotamian61:47example and so on so I’m digging up61:49materials primarily I’m looking for61:52materials that aren’t repeating what has61:55been said 28 times about Leah’s fool61:58right you know so right if you’re going61:59to write about Shakespeare’s balls you62:01need to be a very62:02regional insightful person to say62:04something new and fresh yes but there’s62:06a lot of areas that have not been looked62:08at so I’m digging up that kind of62:12material and started to share that62:13through the the website right and I62:16think I mentioned to you before I spoke62:18to a gesture from North Wales a really62:24great guy called Ross overt hears he’s62:28in a small town called Conway okay and62:31he is Polly’s official jester he named62:35himself there was a the last official62:37gesture I think it was Tom left fall or62:42Tom the fall was around the time in the62:471300s and then I think he was the last62:52person to hold that post so then Russ62:56sort of came along and you know long63:01story short he’s sort of you know took63:03on the mantle of jester and he’s63:09borrowed borrowed that name so it’s63:11almost like that’s his time twin if you63:13like or jester ancestor yeah I mentioned63:22him because when we spoke he and I he63:26mentioned that the fool to you know63:32certainly in certainly in Lea’s that in63:35valia valia play King Lear would have63:39been a soldier or a personal bodyguard63:43and now I’m not I can’t recall if that63:46was a hundred percent all of them yeah63:49there was some of them but I think63:50that’s that sort of gives an interesting63:53spin to not only to the play but also63:56you know we’re now looking at not just63:58these guys who are funny and critiquing64:00things but also you know are you know64:03Salter’s yes very interesting I’ve not64:07come across that mm-hmm64:09but I can think of an example with the64:11in the French Court where actually a64:13very unusual examples of female jester64:15want so many female jesters right but an64:19assassin tried to stab the King and she64:22intervened and sort of threw herself64:24between them and Wow64:26managed to stop stop that attack so I64:30guess it was a kind of natural I don’t64:33know if they were soldiers but it was a64:34natural reaction yes that you you’d64:37throw your body in front of him and64:39protect him or her right no that’s a64:43very interesting perspective yeah iiiii64:46didn’t know that so and I know I don’t64:48know much beyond my conversation with64:50Russ so right right but yeah I’m glad64:55he’s revived it after right right65:02and similarly I spoke to another gesture65:07who’s taken the mantle of Jane the fool65:10she was adjusted during I think Queen65:14Elizabeth’s time yes and so a Isha para65:19the former took on that she does she65:22sort of doing a lot of Renaissance Fairs65:23or Renaissance Fairs here in the US and65:27that’s her time twin and she you know65:30took the name but spelled full with the65:33pH and she is now the official jester of65:38Milwaukee in Wisconsin yeah yeah well I65:42I won’t keep you any any longer I mean65:45we sort of you know we’ve we’ve done65:47quite a while here and we’ve obviously65:49gone away from the you know by preset65:52questions which is great you know it was65:53it’s been an utter delight talking to65:55you and I very very much appreciate your66:01time I don’t know what else how to put66:05that across you’ve been very generous66:07you’ve been very helpful with me to me66:10and I’m glad we’re able to do this great66:14and if I find that any references that66:16might be interesting I’ll send them your66:18way on you know not very fools but66:20because they when I’m looking at66:22bibliographies and things I see things66:24that are more broadly humorous or comedy66:27related66:29sort of think oh I should read then I66:30think wait a minute I’m already getting66:32into the nose toner right right and66:35maybe and how many and how many little66:38rabbit holes do you need to go down66:39right exactly so I’m happy to sort of66:42throw things like that your way okay66:46thank you yes so again thank you so much66:49for your time and you know I good luck I66:56hope the the evolution of the website66:58goes how you wanted to go yeah thank you67:02I’ll keep you posted yet please do yes67:05absolutely absolutely again thanks67:07Beatrice thank you so much I really67:09appreciate your time you’ve been67:11fantastic it’s been great talking to you67:15too Thanks this is at the end of this67:18interview if you’d like to hear more67:20interviews please check out our website67:21comedy Q&A com that’s the word comedy67:24the letter Q the letter N the letter A 67:27 dot com. thanks very much for listening.