00:00[Music]00:07hello my name is Jason Peck and this is00:10a comedy Q&A interview with Professor00:12David Konstan in this interview we00:15talked about the Greek playwright00:17Aristophanes who’s known as the father00:18of comedy we talked about the period00:20after Aristophanes which is known as00:22middle comedy and we also talked about00:24the new comedy period of Greek00:27playwright Menander and we also discuss00:30the Roman playwrights Plautus and00:32Terence if this is a subject that00:35interests you Professor Konstan is also00:37the co-author of a book known as the00:40birth of comedy check out the links00:42below and meanwhile please enjoy the00:45interview how are you00:47I’m pretty good pretty good nice to see00:50you00:50well indeed indeed so if it’s if it’s00:54okay I’ll just launch straight into00:56things is that all right great fantastic00:59okay so you co-authored a book called01:04the birth of comedy right well let me be01:07more precise okay effect I am was the01:10birth of comedy was a set of01:13translations out of the fragments of01:16ancient comedy ancient Greek comedy01:18specifically so fragments and I was one01:21of the five contributors who translated01:25some of the fragments for that volume so01:28it’s exactly what that volume was indeed01:30Jeff Rustin was the primary editor and01:34he must be given full credit he01:36assembled all the materials went over it01:39wrote all the introductions and and that01:41kind of thing but I did I think it was01:44five or six different ancient comic01:46poets okay whose works I translated01:48right it was a one volume collection of01:51all the major fragments of I just01:55explained briefly what a fragment yeah01:56go ahead please treatment is something01:58that is quoted in a later author02:01although we do not necessarily have the02:04original work so somebody whose works we02:07do have02:08happened to quote a line or two lines or02:11even sometimes a longer passage from a02:14piece of literature and otherwise is02:16lost and so we have two lines reliant02:19just these bits and pieces and what we02:21struggle to do is put them together and02:23try to make sense of them and the other02:26source of fragments is Popeye right and02:29because they are sometimes damaged until02:31we get a little piece or else the pirate02:34very often where school texts a person02:37was copying out or personally for02:39themselves a piece of literature that02:41they liked an excerpt and with it02:44survived but we only have a little bit02:45of it so that’s what we did in that book02:48now I just should add that I have a solo02:49author of a book on Roman comedy and02:52also one on Greek comedy in fact go on02:57it okay we’ll get to those that’s great03:00so when if with just thinking about03:04these papyri then is that the correct03:06pronunciation yes okay and the fragments03:10that you have what was the roughly do03:13can you remember what the the earliest03:15one that you found that that you were03:18able to translate that was in the book03:20well I think the earliest come from a03:23character named epic Armas who was03:25Sicilian and I make this point because03:28Athenian comedy was a rendered official03:33on the Athenian stage in the middle of03:35the fifth century BC and from that point03:38on texts were prepared they were read by03:42an Athenian official and they were03:44selected for production then the state03:47would provide actors and a chorus to03:50mount these so in Athens which is our03:53where Aristophanes comes from a man and03:55ER comes from excuse me those are our03:59texts but we know that plays sometimes04:03called comedies were produced elsewhere04:05and and maybe even in Athens in rural04:08towns but earlier and epic Armus from04:11sicily Aristotle says there was a kind04:13of comedy produced in Megara04:15which is a nearby town to Athens not04:17very far away subject of dispute in Wars04:21and so on04:22so there were earlier comedies and we04:24have some selections from them okay04:27epic Armas was intended to be04:28philosophical in character a mocked04:30philosophers okay nice got it okay and04:36so if we’re thinking about epic Armas04:41and all those sort of earlier the rough04:45fragments most of these are pre04:48Aristophanes right yes now we don’t have04:51Athenian playwrights who put their shows04:54on in competition with Aristophanes and04:56sometimes one who were older than04:59Aristophanes the two most famous names05:02are fruitiness that’s C or in Greek05:06would be a k ra TI nu s and cracked YZ c05:12ra t es those are the best known and the05:15best preserved05:17Aristophanes was in direct competition05:19with them sometimes criticizing them05:22explicitly right and occasionally they05:25wrote comedies just as Aristophanes05:27parrot you know made a farcical parody05:30of socrates yeah he could do it of his05:33rivals as well calling them drunken old05:36socks and things of that sort we did in05:38which they did in turn so they were good05:40at this I’m sure it was good humoured a05:43little bit like Saturday Night Live05:45people attacking each other but it was05:47but yes they were05:49elder comic writers Aristophanes when it05:53comes to new comedy I’m sorry old comedy05:55which is associated with he was one of05:57the younger ones happens that we have 1106:02full plays of his and we don’t have any06:04complete plays of the others that’s06:05where the fragments come in if you want06:07to read cretin as’ and crannies at least06:10any major substantial anything more than06:12one word you will find the translation06:14in that birth of comedy so you just open06:17the book there they are under their06:19names nice nice and so you can finally06:22and with you with full attribution so06:24they tell you not just what the name of06:26the comic poet is and what he wrote but06:27where we get it from who quoted it06:30because that might tell you something06:32about its context and what it might have06:35meant to the original audio06:36so we provide we provided a lot of06:39material and that’s a big fat volume at06:41a for the price it’s well worth it right06:44got it so yeah that’s perfect so if so06:53if we’re just thinking about a lot of06:55those fragments of what we have on06:58what’s been translated were there a lot07:01of similarities in the style is similar07:06to Aristophanes or well there is diverse07:08as modern comedians and writers today07:10they were probably not as diverse as07:13they would be today but they were07:15diverse so for example we know from the07:19fragments and from descriptions that07:21they were comedies that were based07:23entirely on mythological themes so there07:26were mythological travesties now07:28Aristophanes may have written a couple07:29of those we don’t know he wrote 90 some07:31plays we only have 11 not we don’t have07:35testimonies for absolutely all of them07:37but the plays we do have yes are all07:42none of them has a strictly mythological07:45theme gods appear in them okay and there07:48was some pretty wild plots like the07:53birds taking over in place of the gods07:55and becoming the new rulers of the07:56universe but they’re not strictly07:58parodies of mythological themes in which08:02case they would have looked a little bit08:04more like tragedies but comic versions08:06of tragedies because tragedies did take08:08myths right so that’s one example and08:12there may have been other kinds of more08:15narrative plays Aristophanes like that08:18had a particularly wild style of comedy08:20but broadly speaking I think it’s safe08:24to say that the tone and the immediate08:27political satire in which Aristophanes08:29engaged was probably characteristic of08:32most of these comedies that were put on08:34stage in Athens in the 5th century this08:37is the first century we’re talking about08:39when we’re talking about old comedy got08:41it ok so they would have essentially08:44adhered to the Athenian structure the08:47per a basis or paribus08:49/ Abbas’s practice yes and so they might08:54not have think I see what you mean now08:56ya rabis is where a carrot the one of09:00the characters in the play09:01basically sheds his character roll yam09:05comes in and speaks straightforwardly in09:08the persona of the of the author mm-hmm09:11maybe maybe sometimes maintaining his09:14own persona but speaking directly this09:16was not it’s not even true of all of09:20Aristophanes plays he has a couple of09:22that lacked the parabolas and it’s09:24certainly possible even likely that09:27other comic plays didn’t use that09:30technique it may be something that09:33Aristophanes himself favored it’s hard09:36to tell because if you don’t have09:37quotations yeah but you can usually09:39identify as such but my guess would be09:42that this was optional okay ask for some09:45other features of the of the cut of the09:47internal comedy right but they would all09:49have a chorus okay every one of them09:51would have a state-sponsored chorus09:53which would dress up in one or another09:55fashion it could be human characters09:57yeah as in Aristophanes a carny ins it10:01could be strange creatures like people10:04dressed as wasps in his play called the10:07wasp people dressed as clouds in his10:10play called the clouds people dressed as10:13some birds in his play called the birds10:18where he seems to have a large chorus10:21and each one differently dressed that’s10:23unusual but each bird was identified by10:25its own characteristics as I walked on10:27stage yes and this was provided by the10:31the regime by the arc on the ruler and10:36the so the state paid for the training10:38Horus oh well big a chorus would have10:43about depends it’s a large heart say10:47twelve or fifteen people and yes and10:48they were citizens they were not they10:53were not trained actors and/or slaves10:56for example they were citizens for whom10:58it was an honor to perform good to train11:01the man sing together handed11:03together and use very complex steps and11:05we even have an ancient speech about a11:08young man who died while he was being11:12trained had a rich man’s house to put on11:15not a comedy in this case but another11:17kind of show yeah and it was a big smile11:19over it because how did he get poisoned11:20did he drink the wrong thing there was11:22an accident yes so do know that the11:25training process was serious you wanted11:27to get that chorus there and you wanted11:29to win you dressed him up a rich citizen11:33would dress up the course put on there11:34yeah you wouldn’t of course nobody would11:36dress them that was one of the possible11:39duties that it was a kind of attacks11:41yeah and one guy is said to have dressed11:44the chorus in order to win the contest11:46in gold to the extent that he ruined his11:48entire fortune11:50Wow big big big events Wow yeah it’s11:56Super Bowl in America is something close11:59but I wouldn’t have quite the same it’s12:04getting there you’re in that that12:06ballpark right don’t it because it’s12:08really difficult to get that you know12:10for me at least you know reading around12:13the subject I’ve got a the fit of12:16Aristophanes I think is by Kenneth12:17McLeish I’m not a certain and it’s12:21really difficult for me at least to be12:22able to pick up those you know what it12:25was really like because I didn’t know12:27for example that the chorus of12:30state-sponsored and they were regular12:32people and I know just certainly didn’t12:35conceive of the fact that it would have12:37been as large as you know America’s12:39Super Bowl well it wouldn’t be of course12:42Americans who blows watch on television12:44but the number of people will see it’s12:46very hard to say there’s big debates12:48about the size of the theater in Athens12:50at that time and how many it could hold12:52a sum want to reduce it to as few as12:55seven thousand others want to make it as12:57high as twenty five thousand if it was12:59twenty five thousand and certainly later13:01maybe at the end of ourself in his life13:03it is amplified to that size you’re13:06talking about a very substantial portion13:08of the population probably in percentage13:11larger than the number of people who13:13watch the Super Bowl on TV13:16and that’s a lot of people but I don’t13:19think it quite gets to fifty percent of13:21the American citizen body and it might13:24have come close in ancient Athens in13:26fact there are scholars who measure the13:29population of cities by the size of the13:32theater Wow okay that’s that will give13:34you an idea of how big it was yeah a13:36simple calculation and few theaters are13:39everywhere yeah they’re all the Greek13:42cities especially at the end of the13:45fifth century in the beginning of the13:46fourth they’re everywhere yeah I13:48compared the role of the theater a13:50little later to the role of movies in13:53splaying Athenian values and they spread13:55you know just the American movies and13:58their how they spread of Hollywood’s13:59role in Europe and Asia and other parts14:01yeah there’s a close similarity yeah but14:07I’m getting ahead of myself because the14:09types of plays I’m talking about belong14:12to new comedy and Menander you know lest14:14old comedy for a reason I can tell you14:16but we go into that later14:17okay so just to just to keep going from14:23where I’ve got so after Aristophanes and14:27he wrote in the period new comp sorry14:30old cold comic right there’s what’s14:33known as from what I’ve researched14:35middle comedy that’s the middle comedy14:37period that came after right yeah could14:40you just tell me a little bit about the14:42differences between old comedy and14:43middle comedy well I can tell you but14:46only a little infant is a good reason14:48why we don’t have a single surviving14:49example of middle guy okay at least not14:51in Greek we have copies of them editions14:55have translations of them into Latin14:58okay when Watterson parents were writing15:00so we don’t know very much about it in15:04addition we don’t even know whether it15:07is really a worthwhile distinction it is15:09made where do we get these terms old15:12comedy new comedy and middle comedy we15:13get them from ancient texts that wrote15:16about comedy and you can read those in15:20Jeff Ruston’s book on the birth of15:21comedy because he translated those two15:24lines that we see where we get our15:26terminology but middle comedy is15:28restrict15:29to order two of these little treatises15:31on comedy yeah what it is is something15:34that lies between Menander do comedy and15:36old comedy and one by the vent of his15:38features it looks as though they may15:41have had more emphasis on the role of15:45what we Tom’s term today courtesans that15:48is high-class call girls okay who would15:51rent out their services it may be that15:54the figure of the parasite that is the15:56character who is constantly scrounging15:59for a meal and therefore was around16:01flattering rich people that may have16:04been another element added to comedy at16:08this time comedy was undergoing some16:11kinds of transitions because at least16:14when you read a play by Aristophanes and16:15you read one by Menander it’s very easy16:18to see how different they are very16:20different so between old and new there’s16:22a sharp difference so middle might have16:25been a transitional phase the only16:28problem with being too secure about this16:30is that if we had more old comedy and16:33more new comedy maybe there would be16:35some more company that we can’t judge16:37but since Menander is the chief poet of16:41new comedy Aristophanes was the chief16:43poet of old yeah when we look at their16:46works we can make a pretty clear sharp16:48contrast and new middle comedy is16:51anything that we assume in the period16:55between the Aristophanes died around 316:57was I think 388 BC Menander17:02first comedy was produced around 323 so17:05he got a 50-year maybe less 40-year17:08break and in that interval we situated17:11middle comedy we don’t really know what17:13it was like got it okay do and we do we17:20have any fragments from this period yeah17:23poets sure that seemed to have been17:25older than Menander but the main17:27fragments come from Menander his17:29contemporaries and slightly later17:30thought it okay so when Android17:34fragments are huge we have many many17:36fragments okay well I’ve got a I brought17:39a little show-and-tell with me17:42for this conversation I picked up this a17:46number of years ago this is Aristophanes17:48and Minh and a new comedy in here can I17:52see the author who wrote it can I see17:56the J Michael Walton oh yeah so those17:59are translations right yeah yeah got it18:03and in here I’ve got men Anders sorry18:06Aristophanes is last two which is women18:09in power but which is also known as18:10assembly women right that’s right and18:12and wealth and I’ve got two from18:15Menander the male content and the woman18:18from Samos right do we have I mean this18:23is all like this is all I have18:26well there’s plenty more around okay18:28yeah the let me to play selected from18:33Aristophanes yeah are his to last place18:36that’s arrival right the last one was18:39actually produced in 388 by his son so18:42Aristophanes already dead the previous18:44one that’s the wealth the previous one18:47the women in power or the assembly women18:49where women take power in the state yeah18:51it’s voted to them by the men but they18:53then take power and they create a whole18:55communist society that’s 391 so these18:59are fourth century plays late plays of19:02Aristophanes that people see as19:05differing from Aristophanes earlier19:09works and they mark a kind of transition19:13to a new comedy okay the to play19:16selected by Menander are the grouch or19:20the misanthrope and that one is the only19:23play of greek new comedy that survives19:26complete and it was discovered on19:29papyrus in 1959 so we’re not talking19:32about something that old if you read19:33anything before then no one had a19:35complete play the woman from Samos was19:38also recovered from papyrus have in19:42considerable fragments in 1895 but more19:47fragments were found and it’s the pretty19:49cage that complete but it’s complete19:53enough to give you a very good idea of19:55how19:55works I can’t recall exactly what19:57percentage of it we probably have yeah20:00maybe 2/3 or something like that we20:02don’t have a complete version of any20:04other play no that’s a good choice um so20:07what the translators have done we have a20:10Menander maybe four other plays three or20:15four others besides those two yeah three20:17in particular that we can survive20:20sufficiently complete that we can20:22reconstruct the plot quite well but the20:27gradually what they call their the the20:33malcontents the malcontents that’s the20:35only one that we really have with a20:37couple of words missing here and there20:38but that’s one that we have complete on20:40a papyrus they be doing really20:41extraordinary discovery so now we can20:45read that so that’s what you’ve done20:46you’ve got a small selection but it’s20:49the translators and editors have tried20:53to match the late plays of Aristophanes20:57which are marking this transition yeah -21:00maybe middle comedy if you wanted to21:02call that and then min Anders plays we21:05don’t have any other complete or even21:08nearly complete plays by any other21:10ancient comic playwright so there was a21:13natural choice got it okay so because we21:17don’t have as much of men Anders work I21:20I mean obviously I’m talking from my21:24perspective um I I don’t feel that he21:28gets talked about as much as say iris21:31Totten ease does when they were fairies21:33we the reason is that and here I’ll go21:37back to something I said I would21:39postpone for a moment earlier on um21:42Aristophanes comedies are what we call21:46topical that is to say they deal with21:49the current political situation so you21:51have a parody of Aristophanes or you21:53have a plays about the war going on21:57between Athens and its allies and Sparta22:00and its allies and they go ask for peace22:02and you bring the Athenians and the22:05Spartans onstage and they do a dance22:08together22:09and they perform and they make various22:12kinds of course jokes and course remarks22:15so these are plays that are very locally22:19situated they’re about Athens they’re22:21about Athens problems now if you want to22:23put on a general play about war and22:25peace and show how the opposition I’ve22:27seen Aristophanes Lysistrata where a22:30woman staged a sex strike but also uh22:33keep that women occupy the Acropolis22:35where the Treasury is in an effort to22:37stop the war and I’ve seen this put on22:39with these Spartans looking like22:42Russians and the Athenians looking like22:43Americans I’ve seen it put on in various22:46other forms where you update it to some22:50current conflict yeah and you offer a22:53solution in terms of women but in order22:55to do that you really have to change it22:58pretty radically because many things are23:00gonna be relevant to that particular23:02time which don’t really make sense when23:06they’re translated into another language23:07so you need a lot of footnotes to make23:09sense of it you need a lot of fit and23:11they’re always there they’re always23:12explaining the jokes either that or you23:15have to really turn the joke around and23:16make it instead of a joke about Pericles23:19you make it a joke about Trump or Obama23:22but that’s all very well but you know23:24then you you don’t feel you’re really in23:26the same world you feel you’ve got a23:28modern comedy yeah with new comedy the23:32plots are completely different they are23:34not political in the same way they may23:37have simpler meaning but they are going23:40to be the ancestors of the contemporary23:42sitcoms where their romantic stories23:45characters fall in love they were23:47obstacles the father protests in the23:49case of the Grouch that young we yeah23:52it’s an old listen tropic guy who has a23:55daughter a young rich character falls in23:58love with her the misanthrope is such a24:00nasty fellow he doesn’t want to marry24:01his daughter off to anyone so you get24:03various think what happens the guy falls24:05in a well and he’s helped and he24:07realizes well I really do need help24:09after all I can’t be entirely on my own24:11so okay I’ll give my daughter and she24:14lets his stepson give the daughter away24:16in marriage and the play ends happily24:18now there to play it you don’t need to24:21have a lot of footnotes for24:22you can have them you can say well yes24:26Athenians were poor farmers in this case24:28and many of them might have been grouchy24:29like this guy and many of them24:32misanthropes could give contemporary24:35references to misanthropic literature24:37but the basic story about somebody24:39falling in love is a grouchy old father24:41who won’t let his daughter marry you24:43don’t need a lot of footnotes for that24:44and when the Romans decided to translate24:47these plays into Latin for the Roman24:49stage yeah Aristophanes didn’t travel24:53but man Anders comedies did and so what24:58we do is we know a lot about men Anders25:00comedies but in Latin translations so25:03Terrence would died young he wrote six25:06comedies very very influential25:08enormously influential comedies four of25:11them are based on banana directly on25:13banana he made changes and they’re not25:17in Greek yeah there are various other25:19kinds of changes he sometimes took25:21pieces from two different plays and25:22combine them but you get a pretty good25:25idea of what man and I wrote like and25:27also we have a commentary in Latin that25:29tells us with five out of the six plays25:31a little bit about what Terrence25:32actually did because these guys already25:34still had the Greek so we know much more25:37Plautus is the other one whose work25:40survived yeah so if you want know about25:41Menander25:42up until recently you have to look at25:44Flores and Terrence but they’re telling25:47you a lot about what he wrote like mmm25:49nice got it25:51and so you were saying that the bananas25:56work and also leading onto terrorist25:59plotters and Terence they’re very26:01similar to what we know as modern26:03sitcoms today you think they look yes26:06they do that’s right the answer that one26:09is yes yeah explain them but their26:14bigger situation is different you know26:17guys get all slaves today yes at least26:19they’re not called slaves I’m joking but26:21you know what I mean yeah you got the26:22poor mm-hmm26:24but you know we can we can recognize the26:28types yeah got it26:29okay and just before we move on to the26:33Roman playwrights just lastly about26:36Menander from what we know of his26:39surviving works26:40are there any modern comedians and26:43modern comedy writers or movies that you26:46feel sort of you know have that flavor26:49or would you or would you say because26:51they’re very similar to modern sitcoms26:54today it’s quite a broad range that a26:56lot of them have that flavor of what26:58Menander might have been like I’m Ashley27:01yeah I’m I’m sorry I’m asking because27:03I’m just trying to paint a picture for27:05people either watching this or listening27:06to this whom you know so they can try to27:10engage go okay so he’s a bit like this27:12guy this show you know if you wanted a27:17teacher of mine once said he was27:22comparing Charlie Chaplin yeah with the27:26Marx Brothers okay27:27Groucho yeah and he said you know27:29Groucho Marx is more intellectual comedy27:33what it’s absurd it’s farce it’s27:35ridiculous Charlie Chaplin is much more27:38realistic you show sentimental stories a27:41blind girl in love with a man all these27:44sweet story yet sometimes it was27:46political but he was many of his27:49comedies are just these more realistic27:53naturalistic kinds of plots he said yes27:56but that’s the point they’re appealing27:57to your emotions the Marx Brothers it’s28:00all verbal wit their making puns their28:03making silly jokes if a if a spy is on28:07on trial and they say do you have the28:10code he says yes I have a code and two28:12pairs of plans needs to say a coat and28:15two pairs of pants yes you know now28:17that’s an intellectual joke you’ve got a28:19caption it breaks the frame if and so in28:22that respect the Marx Brothers with a28:25farcical intellectual humor are much28:27more like old comedy and Aristophanes28:29I’m Charles Chaplin with his romantic28:32sentimental plots he’s much more like28:35Menander got it okay and there’s the28:37difference and I think it works my28:40teacher’s name was Moses hattis I give28:41him credit nice so I’ve got more show28:46Intel28:48I’ve got Plautus this is the pot of gold28:53and other plays this is translated by EF28:57Watling and I’ve got the the Pseudolus29:00if that’s correct pronunciation of yes29:04this has the pot of gold and the29:07prisoners in it oh and then and the29:09brothers minimus and thus my necklace my29:13knight my necklace or manic Monsieur and29:15the swaggering soldier good selection29:19five plays right and that twenty by29:22Porter so that’s a good scratch29:24selection okay that’s great29:25so there’s there’s more I could get yeah29:28and I’ve got this one by Terence29:33this is translated by Betty Radice mm-hm29:40and yep I’ve got the girl from Andros29:43here the self tormentor the eunuch for29:47me oh and the mother-in-law oh and the29:49brothers yeah that’s all six that’s all29:52we have okay got it29:55so now chronologically plautus is29:59earlier right yes right right and so you30:06and you were saying that they pretty30:08much both of them just a lot of them30:11trans translated or translated and and30:14combined at some of men Anders work30:18yeah they adapted well Menander and30:20other plays playwright of another time30:23mmm-hmm okay so did they not just some30:26of them all of them all of them okay as30:29far as we know all of them were based on30:31Greek models some people contend that30:34one or two of fluorisis plays may have30:37been independent and Terrance’s case30:39absolutely but very often Plautus in the30:41prologue tells you exactly whose play30:44and which play which precise play he was30:46adapting oh wow it helps you’ve got okay30:49cuz right on there and says this is the30:51one that was being adapted so um so we30:55know so now I’m gonna31:01little bit of a confession I suppose31:02what because well I always feel because31:04I knew that about tortoise and Terrence31:07I ought I’ve often felt that they were31:12you know they didn’t really contribute31:15much no you I’m I’m going to be31:19corrected here but but I I I’ve often31:22felt that they didn’t really contribute31:24or advance comedy as much as say31:29Aristophanes and Menander did before31:31them and because they were just doing a31:33lot of you know translations or you know31:36adaptations of their a lot of the the31:40new playwrights so is that a fair31:42assessment advice I wouldn’t say that31:49not entirely what I mean by that is it’s31:55one thing when you’re translating plays31:58like page in these little additions that32:00you have yeah and you want to give the32:03reader a sense of what the original play32:05was like that’s your objective right32:07you’re gonna use it in a classroom32:09you’re going to say this is a classroom32:12on ancient comedy yeah your primary of32:15you may hope that somebody will put your32:17translation on stage someday and you may32:21hope that they will do it well might32:23your objective is to reach a reading32:26public okay when Plautus and Terrance32:29were putting their plays on that was not32:31their concern they had a script they did32:34not have a text of a translation they32:37were distributing it among their actors32:39whom they were training and if they32:41weren’t gonna be good they were gonna be32:42booed off stage or simply the audience32:44would leave we have one of the plays the32:47mother-in-law by parents in which we are32:50told in a prologue that comes out on32:52stage and tells us that this is the32:55third time Terrance is putting the play32:56on because the previous two times the32:59audience left one time to see a33:01tightrope walker which was playing next33:04door these are in a circus type33:06environment right okay one of the33:09attractions now not in every case33:11sometimes openings for other purposes33:12but33:13they were one of the attractions going33:15on you either kept your audience’s33:16attention or you didn’t and you don’t do33:19this by rendering a translation33:22faithfully and making sure that every33:24word corresponds to what the original33:26said no you do it by turning it into a33:29play that’s lively making it much33:32up-to-date as you can and so and33:35relevant to your audience yeah this is33:37what Florida says so take one example33:39hi there Jason Peck here just33:42interrupting to let you know that33:43unfortunately we lost the video portion33:46of this interview and I’m really sorry33:49about that but we do have the audio33:52portion so I hope you are able to33:54complete the rest of this interview33:56audio only thanks very much for your33:59understanding34:00Boris added musical numbers to this34:04place we call not the original so you34:07look at the meters yeah you’re right34:10there all of a sudden somebody’s out34:12there singing Aria and he’s translating34:15a play of Menander and we know that34:19Menander had no such areas in his work34:22yeah34:23now banana did have something else he34:25had a chorus but we don’t know what the34:27chorus said as we do with tragedy or34:29with Aristophanes why because all you34:32have is in the manuscripts in the34:34papyrus you have a break and it says34:37chorus so evidently some people came on34:39stage sometimes they were revelers34:41sometimes they were drinkers and they34:42probably did a song and dance but it’s34:44like an intermission it’s like halftime34:46oh it was not a formally scripted thing34:50maybe sometimes they give him idea of34:52what to do he probably trained them but34:55it was not part of the plot so you read34:57the plot in the Roman adaptations they35:02left that pit for the chorus out35:03entirely and so what it poured a35:05substitute song and dance smack in the35:08middle of the play so some character all35:10of a sudden breaks into singing so35:12you’ve got musical comedy now which was35:15not the case in Greek huh simply now35:18that’s a big difference yeah Wow okay it35:21we only know we can’t hear them sing we35:24bought35:25we can see from the meter what the music35:28was like and people today where there’s35:30much more interest in trying to recover35:32performance values and not just text35:35looking carefully to see what you can35:38deduce from that about the music and35:42about how it was before and the answer35:44is quite a lot change picture about what35:48those comedies were like if you realize35:50what was going on on stage yeah and35:53there were all sorts of other things35:55that the roman plays for example really35:59emphasized the role of the clever slave36:01okay who master Minds the plot now if we36:04had all of Greek comedy maybe we would36:07find that there were more clever slaves36:08than we think but it’s pretty clear this36:11is one of the features that Plaut is36:12really liked the uppity clever slave36:16who’s completely unafraid even if you36:18threatened to beat him Birnam stabbed36:21him he just more back talk right and36:24it’s very unlikely that the Greeks were36:27doing this but maybe some of them were36:29in any case the Roman plays our36:31inventive new adaptations you know36:35shakespeare’s comedy of errors is based36:38on fluorisis my night me exactly what it36:40has done yes but Shakespeare doubled up36:43all the characters he made everything36:45more complicated is explicitly and36:49clearly based on the ancient play no36:52question about it but it’s different36:55molière’s36:57miser yes based very closely on the pot37:01of gold37:01okay and the pot of gold has a miser who37:03looks like the misanthrope in the37:05Menander play but different kind of37:06things a miser instead of a misanthrope37:08but a similar type of thing he won’t let37:09his daughter marry because he’s too37:10miserly to give her a dowry all that37:12stuff everything works out the same way37:14yet molière’s play is completely37:17different in many many respects and so37:20you when you think about a movie today37:24that looks back to comedy of errors like37:26yeah is musical the boys from Syracuse37:29yes37:30that’s based on Shakespeare going back37:33to plot us right but it’s a musical37:36comedy as a musical comedy it’s very37:38much like Porter’s37:39very different from what Miranda would37:41have done right so there you go37:43great so I feel that that clevis I can’t37:48really think of a modern comparison now37:50but that clever slave archetype we37:54certainly existed at least into the 20th37:57century right now sure that the the the38:01lower the lower class character the38:05dawns on holidays everyone38:07the Fonz on happy days you know Italian38:09he’s he’s a little bit older very38:13similar to the for me Oh that you have38:17there in Terrence by Terrence very38:19similar type of character he’s older38:20he’s helpful he helps the young innocent38:22naive chaps out of trouble he’s a loner38:27but but sophisticated he has got more38:31experience of life that’s a character38:33right out of ancient comedy nice okay38:38tapped it instead of being a slave or38:40yeah an out-of-towner now type he’s a38:44slightly oddball figure he doesn’t seem38:47to have a family detached from the38:50social environment38:52he’s more manipulative of social38:54conventions let’s put you haven’t comedy38:56right and he sort of comes in so you’ve38:58got the family unit he sort of comes in39:00what he does advance as a plot and then39:03leaves yes or he stays but he does he is39:07he he’s that outsider who helps out and39:12this is very often what the slave did39:14the alternative would be you know the39:18younger family matters Steve Urkel who39:23was always getting everything wrong but39:25somehow also solving things so we use39:27the character who is a little bit absurd39:32mm-hmm out of touch these them obviously39:36they’re not going to be what you get if39:38you don’t have slaves you can have39:39servants mm-hmm in British comedy who39:42very often how quell think of PG39:45Woodhouse with his Jeeves hmm you know39:47the sled the servant who really knows39:49how to make things work39:50yeah course he’s not a slave but he’s39:52come39:53pendant on the primary family right oh39:56yeah you can have them work rights right39:58and slavery is extremely important to40:01Roman comedy there’s a very recent book40:03on comedy by Amy Richland our c.h.l.i40:07and very recent just came out on codify40:10camera what it was but it’s on porters40:12and slavery it’s precisely on that and40:14just how important it’s a big fat book40:17but very readable she’s smart she’s40:19funny she’s full of feeling and passion40:22as well and so she tells you a lot about40:25how important slaves are and why they’re40:28important in the Roman context and in40:33the Greek context they’re well they’re40:35they’re everywhere they’re you know this40:36is a world of slaves right never if you40:39Amy is completely right you can never40:42forget that when you about anything with40:45ancient you’re reading about ancient40:47literature it’s a world full of slaves40:49yeah yeah and and so then that was you40:56were saying that Portus is very similar40:58to essentially began like musical comedy41:01would you say mm-hmm and so then how41:05different was and he was the early41:06playwright how different was Terrance’s41:09comedies when he came along Terrence has41:14reduced drastically the number of41:17musical areas he seems to like to have a41:20style closer to Menander he has fewer he41:24doesn’t put in a lot for example one of41:26the things that Plautus does is a lot of41:29invented words that he just makes up for41:31the common purpose in this respect41:33he’s like Aristophanes right disrespect41:36he just like Aristophanes and he knew41:39Greek they all knew Greek very well he41:41came from South Italy where they were41:42Greeks he he in his epitaph that says he41:45was a man of three hearts he knew or41:48mines he knew Greek he knew his native41:51language which was in Italy and he knew41:54Latin and so he a but so Terrence41:58eliminates that verbal dexterity that42:02verbal pyrotechnics mm-hmm42:05and he sticks more closely to the42:08naturalistic plain style of Menander he42:13was thought to be a model of style okay42:19and people copied his plays part because42:22they were stylistically so pure yeah now42:28he was he didn’t have quite the some42:34people think the common I think Julius42:35Caesar was supposed to said he didn’t42:37have the comic force of power of man and42:39ER but he was it was more civilized poet42:41in that respect right he he himself by42:46the way had been the slave had been42:48taken to from North Africa that message44:06is in Spanish44:13[Music]44:16[Applause]44:20that’s my wife is from Spain and so she44:24leaves a long message you don’t need to44:26put this on the recording but you can44:27have it if you like44:28hahahaha husband Alice Lee we were just44:33talking about Terence being a model of44:37style that was the last thing I remember44:38us talking about mm-hmm yeah he was a44:41model of style for later writers whose44:43frequently described like that by Romans44:47themselves so for example I mentioned44:50that we have a commentary your dating44:52from about the fourth century AD on44:55Terrance’s plays hmm44:57so somebody why would you write a44:59commentary explaining the vocabulary45:01because it’s a few centuries old45:03explaining the plots telling you how he45:05did or didn’t do that Menander you have45:08it because schoolboys reading it and45:11they need information45:12all the ancient commentaries or45:14virtually all of them are for school45:16purposes they’re in for instruction a45:17little bit like translations today and45:20so they’re so we know that he was taught45:24to students and when later comment or45:28write as Cicero and others quote drama45:31they very often spoke parents right and45:34some of his sentences are still popular45:39today phrases that he made as Porter45:43seems a little bit too wild to45:45exaggerate it and nobody was going to45:46use him as a model for how to write45:48right okay so sorry just to be clear you45:51were saying that even back then they45:54would have the pupils in school would45:59have been studying these texts oh yeah46:02absolutely46:03so essentially they were been like46:04almost fresh off the stage and they were46:07you know well it probably I don’t mean46:09immediately after his life although but46:12but within us within a century I mean46:15these things are odd because comedy in46:17Greece and in Rome had a long history46:21but not that long you have from46:24fluorisis about the earliest and Terence46:29not the latest it goes on another half a46:31century and then original comic works in46:35this style for the stage start to fade46:38out and you get a different kind of46:40comic production these are the comic46:43productions that are called mimes46:44they’re not pantomimes their mimes mimes46:47are farcical plays parodies sometimes on46:54mythical themes sometimes there was a46:57famous type called the adultery mime46:58where the hapless husband is cheated on47:01by his wife their funny stories they47:04could put on even classical plays this47:07way even pantomimes were common and they47:11largely took over the theater instead of47:16these comedies that the type we know47:19it’s one of those changes it just occurs47:22people stop writing one kind of genre47:24and they surprise writing another47:26popularity changes today47:28what could we give us an example well47:31you know nobody writes epic today and47:33you’d be hard-pressed to find a tragedy47:36yeah but on stage you find sad plays47:39mellow dramas but who’s writing47:42something like Oedipus for the for the47:44movies right so these things have a47:47philosophical dialogues it’s another47:49example you’ve got Plato you’ve got47:51others but today to write a47:52philosophical dialogue seems kind of47:54quaint and now today so this is what47:58happened to ancient comedy and and when48:01it did these things ceased to be48:04performed as frequently and started48:06turning into things you read and so48:09schoolboys in let’s say Christian times48:13would have been reading parents the way48:16we read Terence when we teach people48:18Latin and by the way we have many evil48:20plays based on Terence to write we took48:24very misery please know that history48:28plays but there was a nun named ruts48:30whither who it’s a funny name48:33HRO t s WI th a ruts whither who adapted48:42to vary48:42Christian purposes very Christian48:45something of Terrence’s style and she48:47wrote six plays just the type that we48:49the number we have from Terrence yeah to48:51show the connection now they have not48:52they’re not adaptations of Terrence’s48:54plays at all they’re entirely Christian48:56but his popularity remained through the49:00medieval period he wasn’t completely49:03lost where she would probably have found49:06very little to pay how much to implore49:09us yeah okay great and just just briefly49:14you were saying that Terrence was likely49:17a originally a slave from North Africa49:21yeah and then lured over probably in the49:24Punic Wars and the wars with Carthage49:26right he was trained and educated in a49:29wealthy household took over the his last49:33his cog Norman the Romans often have49:36three names okay49:37his middle name is Terentius for Terence49:40and that’s the name he took from a Roman49:42family but his final name is a fair a49:44fer which just means the African oh wow49:48but Africa in Rome Roman times referred49:53to what’s today Tunisia Wow okay yeah I49:57didn’t refer to the whole continent yeah49:59and he could but it didn’t typically50:01referred so we know that he would have50:03been brought over for him early in the50:04pewte is probably in the when Hannibal50:07was defeated and he was brought over as50:09a slave he was trained he was his50:10abilities and education were recognized50:12he was doubtless freed and he was50:15reported reputed to have very good50:17contacts with some of the leading50:18aristocratic families in Rome recipients50:22in particular to the extent that there50:25was an accusation that that the leading50:27Scipio africanus the one who defeated50:31the and others had Mellon is his50:35offspring were actually the authors of50:39Terrence’s plays oh and he rejected this50:44ending the I was the author and he hope50:47you had nothing to do with it so so much50:49like you know people call into question50:52Shakespeare’s authorship today50:56yeah probably except this was done by50:58his contemporaries and slander got it51:02okay okay and earlier on you were51:06talking about that right and beginning I51:08think we were discussing that you had51:10you aside from the birth of comedy book51:13you had written your own book sole51:16authorship of Roman comedies right Roman51:20a Greek and what but well one book was51:22called just called Roman comedy Roman51:25comedy okay the other book is called51:27Greek comedy and ideology Greek comedy51:30and ideology51:31yeah those are the two books are written51:32on ancient comedy great and there they51:36are they’re just text books about that51:39okay yeah each one analyzes a particular51:44place oh okay I I’ve got one final51:49question I wanted to ask you the51:53question is and it’s a it’s a question51:57that I’m trying to ask as many people as52:01I can that I speak to and obviously I52:03adapt it a little bit but knowing what52:07we know about the Greek comedy Menander52:12and the Roman comedies Roman playwrights52:15is there any lessons that you wish that52:20modern comedies or modern comedians52:22would learn from their work beyond just52:26doing adaptations it’s sort of something52:30when you watch some of you go I wish52:32they would do something like this to to52:35take it on a level or well let’s see I52:44it’s a good question and I want to think52:48if there were you know I don’t think so52:57I think what what I mean by that is that53:00I think the lessons from ancient comedy53:03have been learned and they are already53:06manifest on the stage when53:08you see something like Saturday Night53:10Live and its parodies mm-hmm53:13they love doing Trump and so on you’re53:16talking about the same type of thing53:18that Aristophanes was doing when he53:20ridiculed for example the very popular53:22leader Cleon to the extent that Cleon53:24took him to court right and tried to end53:26and laws53:28we’re told laws were passed criticized53:30or prohibiting rather naming people real53:34people by name and putting on their53:36caricatures on stage so yes her53:40Stephanie’s plates were longer than a53:41skit on Saturday Night Live we don’t53:45quite have whole movies of that farcical53:50grind53:51partly because the subject matter will53:54change yeah so if you’re imitating Trump53:57today and he’s not president and you53:59know ten years from now nobody remember54:01who he was54:01Aristophanes didn’t care about that54:03because in classical times a play was54:05put on only once right so it’s there54:09it’s for the occasion54:10that’s that nobody cares it’s Saturday54:12Night Live oh you go tell it a 20 year54:15old young person to look at Saturday54:17Night Live shows from 1970s or 80 yeah54:20we’re not gonna catch the references54:22ain’t gonna catch the allusions and have54:24to read they need a commentary and so54:27it’s not funny anymore so they’re not54:28planning it forever and neither was54:31Aristophanes right54:32neither were the tragedians neither was54:34anybody they were doing it just for that54:36moment it could be put on by little54:39groups just the way today you can put on54:41a skit in a high school play but it was54:42not the same thing so and when it comes54:47to the sitcom type of work it’s really54:50similar and and Hollywood romantic54:52movies It Happened One Night and things54:55of that sort all these great movies that54:57people love this is them they are paying55:00tribute already consciously or55:02unconsciously so when you see a funny55:04thing happened on the way to the forum55:06yeah which is built from the braggart55:09soldier spent directly on that we’re the55:11music and singing just the way Porter’s55:14did it it’s really good but but Larry55:16Gelbart one of the writers of that play55:19was also one of the writers from mash on55:21us it comes on55:23so we’re we’re dealing with a world of55:26intersecting patterns and themes my55:31people who are fairly sophisticated and55:32know their their background right yes I55:36think I think the lessons have been55:38absorbed okay all I can say is people55:40should read more of the ancient they55:41would and and they would yet still there55:44we get new ideas but they’re but55:45basically yeah there we know them okay55:50great55:50I did I did just want to ask you is not55:53anything formal but you mentioned a55:58funny thing happened on the way to the56:00forum did you ever see it was a BBC it56:04was a sitcom called up Pompeii did you56:07ever see that no I’m afraid I haven’t56:09well there are there are a couple of56:11clips you can you can see on YouTube at56:13Pompeii though it starred an English56:15comedian this is sort of 60s 70s era56:18called Frankie Howard and he was a slave56:21he was called his character name was56:23Lurky oh and it was set in obviously56:26ancient Greece Pompeii and before the56:30melon in Italy yes before amount56:34Vesuvius exploded and it was and he56:37would always you’d had the story56:39whenever the story was you know someone56:41was trying to have a romantic interlude56:43but he had always because it was a live56:45studio audience56:46he had always talked directly to the56:48audience that were there at the56:50recording and then he’d make references56:52to the BBC and contracts and thing what56:55the time is and and you know you know as56:59I watch that as a as a kid but as I’ve57:01watched that as I’ve got older and I’ve57:04got you know a little bit of57:05understanding about ancient Greek comedy57:06it seems that you know perhaps that what57:10they were recreating would have been57:12similar to what some of the ancient57:13Greek comedies would have been like no57:15sounds like especially Aristophanes but57:17a kind of a mixture of the two yes yes57:19may I ask where you’re from yeah57:21absolutely I’m Marissa from the UK57:26southern England sort of okay got it57:29okay I’ve lived there for bits and bits57:32and pieces myself but in visiting57:35scholar and Cambridge check up57:36times in Edinburgh a couple of times57:39nice yeah so well then there’s been a57:44pleasure let me know what57:47just keep me apprised of what use you57:49make of these not I mean not for any57:52purposes of control just curiosity and57:54interest yeah absolutely absolutely I57:56mean I’m not sure if I explained but57:58roughly what I’m planning to do is I’m58:00going to have the raw versions of the58:03interviews available for anyone wants to58:05see them and then what I was my original58:09plan currently is to have you know one58:13podcast episode it’s trimmed down where58:17I you know I would cut between different58:19people that I’ve spoken to about a given58:20subject and then if they’re in if people58:23are interested in you know hearing the58:25longer interviews for example I58:28interviewed a Chester a few weeks ago58:31and so she was talking about her58:33experience of doing being a jester but58:35also you know other sort of areas of58:37interest that she had so if people58:39interested in the longer interviews58:40those will be available as well okay58:43that’s very good I don’t think I said58:44anything embarrassing you to youtube58:51professor thank you very much okay very58:54well good day you too thanks very much I58:56know right out this is at the end of58:59this interview if you’d like to hear59:01more interviews please check out our59:02website comedy Q&A calm that’s the word59:05comedy there letter Q there letter n the59:07letter a.com thanks very much for59:09listening59:10[Music]59:16you