[Music]00:07hello my name is Jason Peck and this is00:10a comedy Q&A interview with Jamie00:13Beckett Jamie is currently a PhD student00:16studying in the north of England so by00:19the time you watch this he’ll have00:20graduated and I’ll have to reshoot this00:22intro Jamie is studying the use of humor00:25in mystery plays and miracle plays which00:28were a popular form of entertainment in00:30medieval times and by that I mean the00:33historical time period not the American00:35restaurant so if there’s a subject that00:38interests you please check out this00:40interview that’s all right so if it’s00:46okay with you Jamie I just like to jump00:50right in if you could just tell me just00:53a little bit about your background and00:56how you came to explore the relevance00:59and function of humor and laughter01:01within the late medieval period because01:02that’s your your PhD question title01:06right that’s right and it sounds very01:08technical words but yeah so I my01:13background is in Medieval Studies I was01:16really interested in urban medieval01:19history so everything about towns and01:20cities which kind of feeds into a arise01:24in the late medieval period which is01:27probably from about the fourteenth to01:29the sixteenth centuries by my estimation01:32a rise in the kind of wealth and civic01:36culture to do with merchants or artisans01:39so people who make things people who are01:41really involved in towns and cities and01:43are less involved with the crown or with01:48aristocratic elites or Nobles they’re01:51more into kind of lay middling01:54activities so I was really interested in01:57that period I did my masters and my02:01undergraduate degree at York where they02:04have still quite a active tradition of02:07performing these Mystery Plays right so02:09they I was involved with a group there02:13performers who staged the Mystery Plays02:15in the gardens of the Abbey there have a02:19kind of history of their own but these02:22plays are staged pretty much every three02:24years on wagons which is the traditional02:26way of staging them as a the different02:30groups have performed different stories02:31of the Bible and progressed through the02:33streets kind of street theater people02:35watching them talking amongst themselves02:37seeing these things performed or in the02:40modern day we also have static02:42performances so in theaters and other02:44spaces and big volved with those groups02:47I was really interested in the humor of02:50the pieces so just how funny some of the02:52episodes were made a debate so I thought02:56well if we’re laughing at these so much02:58now how much were late medieval03:00audiences laughing were they laughing at03:02the same things um how important was03:05that humour to them and that kind of03:07launched me into this project which03:09ended up in my doctoral thesis Wow yeah03:12it’s one of those things where you know03:14I I took interest in when I was in I03:21guess after high school so I I had a03:23friend a couple years old and me he got03:25to university before I did and he came03:28back you know he was like yeah03:30Aristophanes I was like what are these03:32words that you’re saying to me I know03:34and that sort of took me down you know a03:36rabbit hole of you know ancient Greek03:38comedy and you know and then commedia03:42dell’arte and dairy fo and all that sort03:44of stuff so but yeah I it was for me it03:47was one of those things I was like no03:49one would be interested in me talking03:51about this but you took that that03:53fantastic step of going I’m gonna do03:55this and I’m gonna take it as far as03:57humanly possible which is great you know04:00I’m really really really interesting04:03it’s definitely humor or comedy or laugh04:06there are things which are ubiquitous04:08they’re everywhere everybody laughs04:10everybody enjoys things but best I’ve04:13seen as less worthy objects of study yes04:15he doesn’t make a lot of sense because04:18so much of the way we function as human04:20beings and how interact is based on04:23humor and being funny right why do we04:26only have to look to04:27to deal the more serious kind life right04:30yeah that’s always been a any rotate or04:35not in the rotation because there are04:36other things in life but you know it’s04:38one of those things we kind of go you04:40know well that’s not well that’s not for04:42a serious conversation making people04:44laugh let’s talk about you know these04:47major tragedies yeah and you just think04:49why because you know laughter is an04:52everyday thing that sort of greases the04:54wheels of social interaction you know04:56yeah and I but I maybe it’s because I04:59don’t know I’m not a you know a05:01professor or anything but maybe it’s05:02because laughs laughter such an05:05immediate response it works and it05:09laughs or it doesn’t work and you don’t05:11get the laughs it’s kind of a little bit05:13black and white you know whereas Majid05:15II you can sort of sit there and ponder05:18on it and it affects you or it doesn’t05:20affect you in certain ways then you05:22applaud at the end you know yeah I don’t05:25know maybe that’s why I think there’s a05:27lot of value to that and and but I think05:29it has resulted in people thinking of05:31humor is something quite superficial05:33yeah doesn’t really matter it’s just05:36something you laugh off and then dismiss05:38yeah yes there is definitely more to it05:41than that I’m sure you agree oh yeah05:42yeah absolutely absolutely now I just05:45wanted to ask05:47now the from you know from what I’ve05:51looked I mentioned to you previously05:52that you know this area the medieval05:56period in general and the mystery place05:59specifically it is complete black hole06:01of information for me I don’t know why06:04it was just I’d maybe it’s the06:06misconception that you know you know the06:10people of the time weren’t that educated06:12but you know you’ve sort of indicated06:14previously to me that you know that is a06:16misconception that we’ve that we06:18generally have today06:19now the the medieval drama and the06:23mystery the mystery plays and the06:24miracle plays they were they were mainly06:28focused on representing representation06:32of Bible stories right things like the06:34creation know06:36that sort of thing is that right yeah so06:39both kind of mystery plays and miracle06:41players are quite old-fashioned ways to06:43describe that his pieces of dramatic06:46work okay mystery places are really it06:50was they were never to refer to the06:51mystery place at the time that’s the06:53kind of 19th century scholarly06:56attribution and it’s based on this idea06:58of Miss Tears which is a kind of old07:01French word relating to crafts and07:03crafts or these groups of or guilds of07:07workers are the ones who generally07:09staged the plays which are most keenly07:11associated with Mystery Plays so that’s07:14kind of where the word mystery comes07:16from it’s not really to do with all the07:17mysteries of God or this kind of intake07:21it’s more to do with the people who are07:22performing these things people still07:25really dispute what to call them they07:27sometimes say biblical drama but the07:29problem in that as well because the07:32Bible isn’t something which is07:35necessarily a valid concept in this07:40period and that sounds really odd we07:43don’t have in the 15th century a Bible07:48that is written in English in the07:49vernacular for everybody to read it we07:52have a Latin Vulgate07:54which some people would have been able07:55to read we have people hearing about07:57stories from family and friends we have07:59people being preached to and hearing08:01about stories in that way we have maybe08:03excerpts of different Bible stories08:06being brought up by different authors in08:08other pieces of work but we don’t have08:11that big solid Bible that’s give can08:13refer to when they’re thinking about08:14these things so when we think about the08:17Bible of biblical works in this period08:19yeah especially when you’re talking08:22about popular audiences so people who08:25are from really different classes men08:28women anybody who was watching on the08:31streets and we’re talking about lots of08:34different works and lots of different08:36stories that were circulating at the08:37same time which don’t necessarily line08:40up that well with our Bible today right08:43ok so a lot of it then was probably more08:47correct me if I’m wrong08:49because this is you this is your area of08:50study not mine so a lot of that would08:53have been more sort of you know almost08:57like apocryphal stories or how we want09:00how you should behave in society today09:03yeah and sometime with a bit of Bible09:06thrown in yeah I mean it’s very you have09:10to think of how they would have09:12conceived of them and it’s quite09:14difficult as a modern scholar or as a09:16modern reader to think they would have09:20really believed in this or they would09:22really seem the authority in this thing09:23and because they are stories which don’t09:27really always have solid foundations in09:32biblical texts we recognize today but at09:34the same time they are stories which had09:37Authority which were spoken about which09:39were circulated so even if they’re09:41apocryphal to us they wouldn’t09:43necessarily have been seen in the same09:45way at that time so we have lots of09:48Bible stories that we recognize being09:51changed slightly than being changed to09:53specifically fit those audiences or09:55those producers so in the place of say09:59York which is the city I mostly look at10:02when looking to these mystery plays or10:05drama we have characters saying things10:10in a way which seems very like other10:13people who would have actually lived and10:15worked in that town we have performers10:18who are acting in these performances who10:21would be like butchers or tradesmen who10:24had seen eight is an association there10:26and we have characters putting10:30themselves into situations which are10:32recognisably biblical by acting in ways10:34which seem very contemporary we’ve seen10:37very – they’re modern10:38right like speaking about current issues10:41speaking about issues of gender of power10:44of trade interests all of these things10:47which we don’t really associate with10:49biblical stories yeah they kind of used10:52us a way to talk about them well okay10:55all right and they were you11:01they were before you mentioned wagons11:04right mm-hmm yeah and they were they11:07were always performed on wagons no so in11:11we know York is a really good example11:13because we have surviving scripts of11:16most of the plays in York as they would11:18have been performed as well as a11:20surviving documentation to say how they11:22would have been performed so payment to11:25people who come over to play God or some11:28other characters notes of beer being11:30provided for people creating like the11:33sets people being alone need to make11:36masks or make costumes so we have all of11:38those records which allows us to speak11:41about York with some confidence and in11:43York so this big northern city which was11:46probably at this point the second11:48largest city in the UK sorry England11:51right11:53we have wagons being used so each of the11:56different guilds who are producing these11:57pageants so individual plays within a12:00big cycle of biblical plays um would12:03have the formed their own bit as it was12:07dragged from point to point you would12:10have had different areas in the town12:12where people would have gathered to sit12:13to watch these performances and they12:16would have sat there all day and the12:18kind of the performances would have come12:19past them basically yes yeah so you kind12:23of get to sit there almost outside your12:25house or sometimes even from that window12:28of your dwelling or whatever and see all12:31of biblical history being played out in12:33front of you Wow12:34so it’s quite unlike sorry now I was12:38just saying the idea is you’re kind of12:39being immersed in the world of the Bible12:42and it’s being mixed with your own world12:44at the same time right you can see it as12:47a way to get closer to God and which was12:49doubtless one of the utilities of the12:51place but though as a way to kind of12:54improve your understanding of human12:57relationships and how all of those12:59society should work so what you were13:01saying about them being kind of telling13:03you the right way to act or being more13:05honest works in that context because13:07they are enacting certain ways of13:11behaving and not always behaving well13:14the comedy in these plays comes from13:16characters misbehaving and they13:18misbehave so the audience can think to13:20themselves how would I act in this13:22situation if I was placed this biblical13:24story how would I yeah so we I took I13:28went far away from a question then they13:31York we have stages in a lot of other13:34places they’re often called mansions13:35which sounds really fanciful but right13:37it’s records of that we have records of13:39different types of wagons being used in13:42England in Scotland on the continent13:45lots of different plays performed in13:47lots of different ways really right13:50there there’s a lot of variety in the13:52performance culture of the period but so13:56little survives these sometimes quite13:58difficult to pinpoint any real distinct14:02way of staging but we have the York so14:04we kind of we have taken it for read as14:08read that this is a general way of14:10performing these plays and it’s not14:12necessarily but that’s why York is so14:15useful because we have all the14:17information about it yeah I see what I14:21was gonna say was it you the the idea14:24right I had was that it was sort of like14:26you know I’m not sure what it’s like14:28you’re in York right now all right14:30no I’m sadly away at the moment yes okay14:34I’ve spent a lot of time there and in14:36Durham’s it’s slightly further north14:37going well I would say were in in14:40Chicago a lot of the times they have14:43sections of you know during the summer14:47they have sections of the street14:48cordoned off and you have you they often14:51have like little local street fairs and14:53there would be a band at one end and you14:56could I imagine I don’t know because I14:58haven’t lived in the the areas where you15:00could where that happens but you could I15:02imagine you could literally look outside15:04your window watch the band as it’s15:06playing and then people are you know15:08eating food and going to different you15:10know15:10then vendors that sort of thing so it15:12sort of sounds like it would have had a15:14similar feel back then you could almost15:17look at sort of your window and watch15:19the the play that is being performed15:21yeah yeah so a real festive atmosphere15:24that lots of us having spirit concerns15:27they were in York they started at one15:30end of town and kind of wound their way15:32along a route through it through the15:33heart of the city yes okay if they would15:37have wrote erected their own staging and15:40people would have made money by selling15:42seats people could have stood in the15:44street as well to see these things15:45people could have stood at our windows15:47and been invited by the people who lived15:49in those houses to have a party in that15:52room while watching the plays where the15:54music it would have been food would have15:56been drink it’s a real festival15:58atmosphere because this is a feast the16:01world festival obviously comes from the16:03feast and this is the feast of Corpus16:04Christi which is a one of the kind of16:06bigger religious celebrations but when16:10you say religious celebration it’s not16:12just about being pious and sensible and16:15looking towards devotion it’s really16:18celebrating and enjoying your way16:21through these things right right and16:23that it’s interesting you say that16:25because that’s not the the typical image16:27that I have you know from you know from16:29movies or TV shows or what have you you16:31know it’s just sort of monks in brown16:34and everything’s dark and everything is16:36gray and you don’t really get that sense16:38of festivity or joy to get a sense of16:41misery I guess yeah unfortunate16:45misconception it seems yeah it’s really16:47fair to say that the medieval period or16:50even medieval II feeling periods I’m16:54thinking Game of Thrones and things like16:55that so these fantasies really focus on16:58the dirt of the Middle Ages the kind of17:00downtrodden nature the way that the17:03powerful people were really only the17:05church and the king or lords that you17:07really have fear of your life and they17:09lose a lot of violence and bloodshed and17:12whereas those things are partially true17:14we also have real interesting instances17:19of kind of real fun in culture you know17:24with mr. play a willingness to perform a17:27real desire to celebrate different17:29things and also with this burgeoning17:34middling saw as I’ve talked about so the17:37people who are making more money from17:39trade and from and this different17:41aspects of manufacturing we get more17:44people with more money wanting to17:46celebrate their own culture less spin on17:49things it’s the period I’m working on17:53it’s really the ones just before people17:55start talking about Renaissance which17:58itself is a kind of a bit of a18:00problematic term but I won’t bore you18:02with that18:03maybe maybe another time and maybe18:06another time but we get this really18:08exciting culture where people have money18:10to do things and they’re really willing18:12to put it out there and enjoy it right18:16and they’re so though you were saying18:21though though there were scripts left18:22behind roughly but we we don’t really18:26know where they were they like complete18:28scripts or where they sort of outlines18:30and details of what would happen in the18:33story yeah so I think it’s always worth18:36saying it’s easy to talk about York York18:38York York18:39I will mention you’re in New York we18:43have a relatively broad surviving set of18:47scripts so we have the creation we have18:50Adam and Eve we have lots of plays in18:53that in between we have passion plays to18:55do with Christ and the crucifixion and18:56we have the Last Judgement so the kind18:59of this apocalyptic scene at the end so19:03we yeah we almost have a full script of19:06what happened the reason this is19:09recorded is because in the 14 70s so19:13this is probably about a century or19:14something like that into the history of19:17the plays they would have been formed19:18quite regularly before they’re an almost19:20yearly appoints the government of York19:24so the kind of civic Council and the19:26aldermen they’re yeah what to have a bit19:29of control over these performances so19:31they decided to record them or ask the19:35groups who were performing them to19:37submit scripts and from this point on19:39somebody from the council would go and19:41be paid the city in and make sure that19:44all of the right words were being said19:45so you couldn’t sneak anything on19:47authorized in so that’s the reason why19:50the scripts do survive in York because19:53the Civic government wanted this19:55of control in lots of other places they19:58don’t survive they don’t survive either20:01because nobody ever bothered to write20:03them down because the performances would20:05have been known by heart by some people20:07all goes the script that were written20:10would have been written on kind of20:11scraps of paper that were discarded20:13really quickly you know burnt of thrown20:15away we also have the problem which you20:19always have over the Middle Ages where20:21things just don’t survive as well20:23especially if they’re paper if they’re20:26parchment if it’s if it’s a record which20:30nobody has bothered to treasure and20:33cherish maybe because it’s become20:35unfashionable which the place did become20:37because of various things but because of20:39the Reformation as much as anything else20:41people started thinking they’re a bit20:43too Catholic or a bit too Pope ish so20:45they wanted to discard these plays so we20:48don’t have survived in lots of the20:50places where they were performed but we20:53have the York cycle which is quite a20:55full collection of plays which is housed20:57in the British Library and something20:59called the your register we have the21:01Townley plays which used to be21:03associated with Wakefield in Yorkshire21:05but aren’t really anymore as much21:07they’re associated with that area but21:10not the particular town so that survives21:13in the Huntington Library in California21:15and we have other scripts that we have21:18scripts from Chester21:20we have scripts known as the N town21:22collection which are thought to come21:24from East Anglia which is another region21:27that was very wealthier this period full21:29of quite exciting mercantile cultural21:31events so we really have a limited21:35number of the things that were actually21:37performed but it’s a kind of tantalizing21:39touch of what was happening in this21:42period right and we and so that means we21:46also wouldn’t have any certainly in in21:50England we wouldn’t have had any21:52specific playwrights that we we wouldn’t21:54have known right no not really and it’s21:58it’s always difficult to say because you22:00know tomorrow is somebody could discover22:02some things maybe yeah Internet at the22:04bottom a manuscript but most of the text22:06we’re dealing with are anonymous22:08and most of that is because there was22:11less of a stress put on who actually22:14wrote down these players at this point22:16and of course we don’t know if the22:19person who was writing these things down22:21actually conceived of the scripts at all22:23in the case of Europe I probably didn’t22:25yes its most community theater it’s22:28partially improvised all the time they22:31would have been reacting to audiences22:33they would have been thinking how can we22:34best tell this story right so it’s the22:38idea of authorship is quite a difficult22:40one and quite a modern one but saying22:42that in other places on the continent in22:44the Low Countries we have authors of22:47similar plays so we we talked briefly22:52before about the rhetorician skills22:54which were begun in the Low Countries22:56and they were performing similar kinds22:59of plays not always biblical in theme23:01but quite famous playwrights of those23:05whose name survived but in England less23:08so we’re not really sure why in a sense23:13it’s the same as works of art you know23:15the idea that artists don’t really exist23:18in that period in this Renaissance when23:22suddenly we get everybody’s name being23:25written down it’s because the artist23:27isn’t necessarily seen as important as23:29what they’ve actually produced right and23:32what you’re you were describing and how23:35you know sort of semi improvisation23:38always sort of sounds you know a little23:41bit like not sure if you’re familiar23:43with a commedia dell’arte mmm period23:46that was you know outline a lot of23:51outlines everyone would have their their23:53part but the dialogue essentially would23:56be improvised or you’d insert you know23:58stock bits of scripts that you had24:01previously memorized or it’s like a24:04little bit more like modern days24:05stand-up you know we’re certainly with24:07the interactions with the audience and24:09and responding to the feedback you’re24:11getting yeah I think stand-up is a24:13really good comparison because you are24:16following an internalized script to some24:19extent yes you really are working with24:22the crowd24:22do you have and these performances could24:24change quite well yeah between the way24:26they staged though of course we have a24:28kind of authoritative version which has24:32survived so right it’s it’s more24:35difficult to align them with the24:36commedia dell’arte tradition because24:38that is so in itself so interesting and24:42so distinct we don’t just see in these24:46biblical plays certain types being24:48performed or certain bits of script we24:51see definite stories because they’re the24:53stories of the Bible right it’s just24:55slight changes in the way they’re being24:57performed and right which what’s the24:59character used stressing okay I’m glad25:01I’m glad you clarified slight change in25:03the way where they’re performed as25:05opposed to the content because I cut I25:07kind of I can’t imagine an Adam and Eve25:09story where they don’t get kicked out of25:11the Garden of Eden you know it’s funny25:13you know reacting to what the audience25:14want oh you don’t or you want them to25:16stay okay well they’re staying now25:17they’ve expelled the snake very much you25:21have to hit those points both you can25:24really compare that to two modern25:26performances wait you have your points25:28to hit otherwise you don’t get anywhere25:29in a certain performance so yeah and25:32when you’re telling the story of the25:34Bible you have to be you know fairly25:36consistent you have things young people25:38will expecting can’t deviate too much25:40from them and so on that then I you know25:45my my impression of you know probably25:48that the period itself and you know sort25:52of you know my impression of the Bible25:55perhaps in that time period it seemed to25:58read dry and very serious but you’re26:01looking at the humor so so the the26:06mystery plays then used a lot of humor26:08were they were they like comedic26:11vehicles or were they more sort of26:13dramatic in fare with moments of comic26:17relief right so it’s it’s important to26:21say that the the Mystery Plays were26:23usually performances of the whole of26:26biblical history so if you have that26:29structure to work with anyway so then26:32they’re not really comedies because the26:35prior26:35Maree object of performing them isn’t26:37just to make people laugh even that’s a26:39good thing to do on its own don’t get me26:41wrong it is more to show the stories of26:45the Bible to help people understand them26:47but a lot of what I talk about in my26:51research is concerns how humour is used26:54for people to approach those stories so26:57how especially the way comic elements27:02are not only just a relief to27:04performances that kind of measured27:06against the tragic ones but really open27:09out these stories of the biblical past27:12and allow people to get closer to them27:14so the way we talked about the whole of27:17this festival transport streets into27:20these biblical spaces you can see humor27:23as a way to really bring people in27:25because you know laughter itself is27:27ubiquitous humor has always been part of27:29human interaction it’s a kind of quite27:31natural thing so to have comic elements27:35in these performances doesn’t just mean27:38that people will be laugh be laughing at27:41them and kind of maintaining their27:44intention through that it’s awesome as a27:46way to get them to interact with the27:48ideas that are going on here and we’ll27:50definitely see that so the play of Noah27:54Noah’s Ark is quite a common one we see27:58that in York where Noah is seen as a28:01kind of a righteous man he’s building28:04the ark it’s the last brightest man on28:05earth he saves his family he does all of28:07the things that the Bible as we read now28:09says he does but we also see him as a28:12character treating quite comically and28:15his usual trade as a silly old man28:17certainly before he learns how to build28:20the ark um who’s asleep he doesn’t28:22really know what he’s doing he learns28:24under God’s tutelage how to do all of28:26this work then all in those stories28:29quite famously we see Noah’s wife being28:33introduced and Noah’s wife isn’t really28:35in the biblical account but here she is28:38given a huge role certainly in York in28:41only in Chester in some of the other28:43place I caused that exist oh I shouldn’t28:46say play cycles plays they exist28:49I’ll think of you please forgive me yeah28:53but we see this new relationship between28:57Noah and his wife it’s difficult to29:00think of reasons why that’d be except29:02for to appeal to the audience yes who29:04are mostly married people who are kind29:08of working with this performance29:11structure that is based on people who29:13would get married rather than as clergy29:15who wouldn’t and we see it as a comic29:18relationship they’re bickering at each29:19other constantly they’re fighting at one29:21point Noah’s wife refuses stoutly to get29:25onto the ark I’m calling her it’s been29:28mad like swearing at him it’s really29:31their comic confrontation which forms a29:34different center to the play the one we29:37might imagine as modern audiences and29:39you have to think about why that is why29:41they’ve bothered to make this funny29:42whereas they could have just kept it29:45perfectly straight it could have just29:46performed that vibe you know as a29:49serious29:50well piece of doctrine really so why29:55Hume is being used I think to help29:57people understand exactly what the29:59ramifications were and what they’re do30:02in the situation if their husband came30:04home and told them that the world was30:06flooding so you have to board an arc now30:07and we leave everything behind it’s30:09really thinking about those big30:11questions but in a comic way without30:14really without being angry without30:18raising they are of people but allowing30:20them to think about those big issues30:23rather than just glossing over them as30:26they might do otherwise right right30:28their sin it’s interesting because I30:29just suddenly thought that you know they30:32they Hollywood made that movie Evan30:35Almighty a few years ago right right30:37right and that was you know sort of30:40essentially a retread of the idea of30:43Noah’s Ark essentially and it was you30:46know all and exploring the the comic30:49implications around that but and it’s30:51interesting though that’s something that30:53has you know been around for a long time30:55now yeah and it’s it’s really a way to30:58make those stories or make those31:00narratives more human I think31:02yeah it doesn’t necessarily bring them31:04down to a level because I don’t think31:06comedy ever really brings things down in31:08that sense you make us interact with31:11them ask the people who are already31:12listening who already their audiences31:15and so it’s a really interesting way to31:17look at a topic right it gets you31:21possibly further than it would just to31:23tell you a story and expect you to31:25understand it mm-hmm okay now I read an31:30article that you wrote in 2017 using31:35your words against you now you you made31:39reference to some of the Mystery Plays31:41using puns so I wanted to ask you do we31:45have an idea of the the type of humor31:49that they used was it just puns were31:51there any other techniques that they31:53used well I saw she put me on the spot31:56writing my own words at me I’m sorry I’m31:59sorry sorry we we see I’d say more32:07situational comedy in that they’re32:12dealing with human relationships and32:14they’re kind of most of the humored32:17arise from characters clashing and I’ve32:19argued elsewhere that most of it comes32:21from this slight clash between the lived32:25experiences as audiences would have had32:28them or as you exhale will have felt32:30them with this idea of the biblical past32:33so to come back to Noah in the ark you32:36have somebody who’s kind of a normal32:39woman day-to-day she works she’s got32:41children and she kind of deals with a32:43troublesome husband who’s a bit stupid32:45you have that figure who seems quite32:47normal and quite natural to us32:49confronted with this this biblical32:51paradigm of the Great Flood everybody32:54died and the world being removed and32:56this patriarch Noah so it’s those things32:59rubbing up against each other those kind33:01of frames of understanding clashing33:03which create the humor within them we33:06have puns we have a lot of bored in us a33:08lot of swearing which sometimes is33:11people because these are biblical play33:13right yeah yeah we do have swearing33:15quite33:16Noah’s wife famously cause Noah Ram33:19skite which is kind of means rampu33:26we have lots of different aspects of33:29physical comedy so the sparring onset as33:34there are people literally fighting33:38tripping eachother over33:40we’re scrapping into things but we also33:43have a lot of quite sophisticated humor33:46which is more playing on the audience’s33:48expectations of how somebody might heart33:50or that laughing at a situation they33:53recognize but one that’s slightly33:55different to what they might expect yeah33:58so I think it’s quite it’s quite broad34:01but we have I think people usually have34:05an idea of medieval humor being34:06something to do with the body and with34:09scatological stuff and being to do with34:11everything that we see kind of in film34:17or TV representing the medieval past and34:19there was a lot of that you know you34:20read short so you see really like funny34:23bawdy episodes and there wasn’t that’s a34:25really big part of medieval comic34:28culture but there is quite a lot more to34:31it than that as well there is a depth34:33which i think is kind of appreciated34:37yeah it’s it’s interesting that you say34:39that you know I was thinking I speaking34:41someone on the topic of Shakespeare and34:43I was talking about this is something I34:46learned from when I was a college that34:48they lot of Shakespeare still works34:51today because we still experience a lot34:53of the same situation as the same34:55emotions the language has changed but we34:58as people haven’t really changed that35:01much and now you’re telling me it’s kind35:03of the same with humor you know we’re we35:05still joke about the same sort of things35:07the language is different and our35:10understanding of things our bodies and35:13that sort of you know that sort of thing35:15is different and is more informed but35:18essentially we’re still making the same35:20dick jokes and you know the same insults35:23and using you know we’re we know35:26swearing and all that sort of stuff the35:28though the the expletives have changed35:31but yeah unda mentally you know things35:34haven’t changed that much yeah I35:36definitely agree but I think you have to35:38moderate it to a certain extent because35:40we’re laughing about different things35:42and you know there are some things now35:44which are well I suppose you could argue35:46about this but some things that are a35:48medieval spectator probably would have35:51found funny which we don’t really accept35:54so there’s a lot misogynistic stir35:56there’s a lot of anti-semitic stuff35:58especially in okay English theatre these36:02are to do with stock characters is not36:05just anything else and you can to some36:08extent distance from that in modern36:11performances but I think getting back to36:13the text and the culture is always36:15important so even though we’re laughing36:17in similar ways similar kind of forms36:20it’s the details of those poems which36:23really count sometimes right it’s what’s36:25kind of most interesting in research36:28when you come on something which36:30medieval audience might have found36:32really funny you’re trying to work out36:35how why that might be so the kind of the36:38really different culture which feeds36:40into these narratives of humor that are36:43circulating these discourses of Hume you36:45could say how a strange that is from our36:49experience and how it can be sometimes36:50difficult to understand I think really36:54in there are certain plays in the36:57Mystery Plays so the kind of biblical36:59plays I look at which laugh at subjects37:02which would almost be difficult to touch37:06at this point and to kind of remove away37:09from the the subjects of misogyny and37:12anti-semitism we get performances like37:16that involving the Virgin Mary there’s a37:19major set of narratives and performances37:24surrounding Joseph so Joseph the37:27carpenter doubting that Mary is a virgin37:30today seems very odd it seems very37:33unnatural to us it seems almost well37:35it’s it seems blasphemous though it was37:39definitely something37:40which was performed we have Joseph37:42repeatedly asking who mary slept with37:45you know that she duped into this by37:48somebody dressed as an angel that we and37:51that is made comic and that’s a comic37:53situation that has basis in earlier37:58works of Church Fathers so there’s a38:00work called the protoevangelium of james38:02which i I wouldn’t ever recommend38:04pronouncing it38:05you’ve now I’m sure I pronounced it38:08right myself but here we see sure I’m38:10sure I’ll get lots of emails or lots of38:12comments hey all the correspondence it’s38:16a gift to you do you see that being38:20formed as a story that Joseph doubted38:23the Mary’s sorry the Virgin Mary’s story38:26of theirs and was quite soon rectified38:28but when it’s taken into performance38:31that story of doubt is made by a comic38:33thing and it’s sometimes not necessarily38:36clear whether we’re laughing at Joseph38:38for being stupid enough to think that38:40this woman isn’t the Virgin Mary yeah38:43whether we’re asking out the Virgin Mary38:44because it sounds very much like she’s38:47been duped it almost puts us into the38:50world of the biblical time and what a38:54time that is and gets us to think how38:56would we react to this situation of38:58course we know what has happening39:00there’s no doubt in the minds of the39:02people watching that the virgin mary is39:03a virgin yeah but the comic situation39:08arises from people playing with those39:10doubts kind of really daring the39:13audience to think about this stuff in a39:15way that they wouldn’t have thought of39:16before which to us now seems unthinkable39:18you know if you think of pious medieval39:21people you don’t think oh there’s a39:23whole series of performances a series of39:26artworks manuscripts which play on this39:29idea of Joseph not believing in Mary’s39:31virginity39:32yeah yeah interesting just to sort of39:39stick with the idea I mean I wanted a39:41golf when its hand in there I’m trying39:44to be conscious of time and that way it39:47would take us into a serious rabbit hole39:51so does so with the restaging of the the39:57Mystery Plays which I’m sure you’ve seen39:58right that’s what you get involved with40:00and seen does the just like the humor40:03still work I mean do they I’ve sort of40:09covered that part whether you use the40:10same jokes that we sort of do today they40:12sort of hit upon the same subjects do40:15they do they still work and they just40:19they were essentially packaged in a40:21different way with the language do we40:24have to do they do they work the just40:29the humor work using the language with40:32English language as we know it now or do40:35we have to use their English language40:39well I think it always depends what you40:42want to do with the performance because40:44there are so many ways of performing any40:45play really aren’t you’re not sticking40:48quite rigidly to this and I think40:50there’s a lot of potential for humor and40:54certainly a lot of performances I’ve40:56seen people have laughter dentally40:58because so many of the comic elements41:02are situation based so people always41:05laugh at this relationship between Noah41:07and his wife because it speaks to modern41:09relationships there’s some Western you41:11bang on the same meeting of two worlds41:13you’re kind of you’re laughing at a41:16bickering couple you’re laughing at the41:18way that they just don’t understand each41:20other and that’s that’s a fairly easy41:22thing for modern audiences to grasp I’d41:25say he can work in performances of41:29middle English versions it definitely41:32can because people have performed it in41:34that way but I think because those plays41:38rely so much on this meeting of a kind41:41of idea of the biblical time and the41:43idea of a contemporary time yeah you41:46also staged them in a modern way which41:48plays on modern values which as he41:51achieves a very similar result I think41:54what makes things more difficult so it’s41:56more difficult in raising a laugh now to41:59some of these plays is the fact that42:01people don’t have the same knowledge of42:05different aspects of the Christian store42:07a kind of life they won’t necessarily42:10understand a reference to something and42:13so when I I’ve previously written on42:16Noah and the fact that in modern42:19scholarship most people seem just as42:21this righteous man he’s purely a42:23righteous man he builds an ark nisa42:24their last rites on earth and that’s42:26what he does it but in the late Middle42:28Ages there’s a lot more focus put on the42:33story which happens after Noah42:36disembarks essentially when he grows42:39vines becomes the first person to grow42:41wine and drinks too much he gets drunk42:44and makes a fool of himself this is a42:46really big story once wealth Union the42:49late medieval period the medieval period42:51more generally and far later and because42:54of this I’ve argued before that42:57audiences would have probably been a bit42:59more ready to laugh at him because he43:02already been seen to be a slightly43:04ridiculous figure whereas to a modern43:06audience there really unless there are43:09really well read up on certain placed43:11pieces of the Bible or different aspects43:15of that culture they don’t have any idea43:17and they have different expectations of43:20certain characters so when those43:22expectations are being played with43:24people can’t really appreciate it in the43:26same way I think again there are things43:31that modern audiences don’t really laugh43:33at that43:34medieval once would have laughed at43:36possibly reason depending on your43:39sensibilities but um but when you are43:43staging things I think it’s it’s really43:47up to the performers to really engage43:49with that spirit which medieval43:52performance would have had interacting43:54with an audience really trying to read43:56the crowd and work out what it is that43:58will make them laugh or respond in the44:00way they want to to these things so44:02right so yes they are funny they are44:04funny plays they can be made to be funny44:07but as as with every performance of44:10something which is as comic overtones it44:13really depends on how well it’s being44:14acted and how well you’re working the44:17crowd and doing this that44:18got it okay so I just want to get into44:22just wrapping up now if that’s all right44:24yep my my essentially my final question44:28to you is this knowing what you know44:30about how humor is used in the Mystery44:35Plays whether it’s function in the44:37history plays sorry mystery plays long44:41history this is going really well I’ll44:44take this again knowing what you know44:46about how humor and laughter is used in44:49the mystery plays do you think there are44:52any lessons that modern comedy or modern44:55comedians can learn from them I think44:59it’s always difficult because I think I45:04would say that the plays are at the the45:07cutting edge of a culture which is for45:10its time very sophisticated and I think45:13they are clever they’re trying to be45:16clever they’re trying to play with45:17people’s expectations which are things45:19we see in modern comedy all the time yes45:21especially you know comedians you see as45:24being very good or very skilled are45:26constantly playing with what the45:28audience expect them to do and then45:30either changing that slightly or45:31completely subverting it which is45:34something we definitely see in these45:35plays I wouldn’t like to recommend or45:39give any tips based on them they’re so45:42rooted in the historical moment and it45:45almost seems odd to make those links but45:49I think definitely this idea of reading45:52a crowd45:53working with what you’ve got don’t with45:56what you’ve got really trying to apply45:59the material in a way which draws out46:02you would think about things too to46:04really work out where they lay with46:08reference to in the material you’re46:10working with I think is valuable even46:12modern ideas of comedy right right yeah46:16I think that something like that would46:18be easier in in terms of doing stand-up46:21or sketch sketch comedy and or and46:24improv and less so in like an46:27established play because you have to46:29often with something like know46:31leaps to mind or Oscar Wilde you have to46:35you’ve got that you’ve got the given46:36circumstances and you it I think it46:38would be difficult to sort of change46:40your performance I don’t know it could46:42be difficult to change your performance46:44based on audience reaction because you46:46don’t want to you know you know46:48everyone’s expecting the certain things46:50to happen you know within the yeah that46:54everyone’s familiar with but I suppose46:56you can always argue that you don’t want46:58an audience to always be expecting47:00things you don’t want it to be tired or47:02stale you always want to put your own47:03spin on it to make it that bit funnier47:06that you know that slight revelation47:08which comes with the best comedy right47:10um makes you think oh actually you’ve47:13surprised me better because I’ll47:15remember this to be before right and and47:17you just sort of saying that I forget47:21the character’s name this is really bad47:22but that there’s a character in the47:29Oscar Wilde play Importance of Being47:31Earnest the Lady Bracknell there we go47:37but there she has she has a line where47:41she says handbag47:43John where things talk about how you47:45know he was found in a handbag and she47:47you know there was the famous one in the47:49movie and it from the 50s I think or 60s47:51how she says you know I forget the47:54actress’s name which is really bad but47:57oh it’s you Margaret is that yes there48:00you go yeah thank you saved but you know48:04perhaps then it you know you you’re48:06going to a new production of importa48:09Being Earnest knowing this and they48:11wondering how the actor that you’re48:14watching is going to deliver that line48:16yeah and you’re playing with those48:20really familiar characters sometimes but48:22making them better you know put your own48:24spin on things48:25yes yes always values yeah yeah really48:29good really good comparison yeah I mean48:32you know and and then it would also be48:34similar with Shakespeare as well48:35wouldn’t it there’s a bigger example48:36there you know howhow is Hamlet gonna do48:39his to be or not to be speech yeah yeah48:42how is Falstaff gonna be performed how48:44are you going48:44kind of he’s yeah somebody yeah I’ve48:47seen this play nine times and it’s been48:49different every time and are you gonna48:50be better and you know am I gonna be48:52surprised or right and I think it’s also48:55worth saying that the mystery plays kind48:59of really get their material from a very49:02broad well-known culture so people49:05watching them would have shared the49:08kinds of knowledge they had to approach49:09these things which i think is a kind of49:11it’s an interesting in relation to more49:16modern comedy because everything is to49:20some extent so specialized now oh49:22everything which we see us really quite49:24good comedy eyes on a kind of issue49:28relies on certain people being49:30interested or knowing about this kind of49:32material so it almost compares better49:36two very broad sitcom comedy which49:40family-friendly even though obviously49:42see a lot of swearing a lot of different49:44thing in these plays and because is49:47trying to work with a very broad group49:49of different kinds of people or having49:51different levels of education and49:54knowledge and interest so yeah I think49:56that’s that’s also a kind of an49:58interesting way to think about them in50:00terms of modernity right so where can we50:05I mean you’re you’ve got that you’ve got50:08your PhD you passed you how you50:10pronounce it vive er Viva50:11right yeah yeah yeah so you like that50:13and so you’ve you’ve got your50:15dissertation right mm-hmm what’s gonna50:18happen is you Amy to get that published50:20yeah we’ll see because I only post them50:24over a week ago so it’s stages yet but50:27yeah I think probably in the future that50:28will be coming out all of the work I’ve50:30done so far has been with the records of50:33early English drama northeast project50:35which is based at the University of50:37Durham and they have a really good blog50:38if you want to look at any of the50:41material that either I’ve spoken about50:43all different members of the team has50:44spoken about which doesn’t necessarily50:45relate to comedy which is still good I’m50:49also part of something called the humors50:51of the past Network that’s where I found50:53that article you wrote yes yeah which is50:56a really great working group50:57of scholars who are dealing with50:59different aspects of humor throughout51:01history so um I really advise anybody51:04watching to look at that blog as well51:06because there’s whether you want to look51:08at medieval comedy classical comedy51:10thing from you know from 200 BC up to51:16anywhere in the present time there’s51:19some really great stuff and it’s so51:21interesting that everybody is interested51:24in comedy not only as something51:27superficial to make you laugh briefly51:29but something worthy of study of the51:32helix yeah yeah fantastic51:35okay that’s it I mean thank you again so51:40much for your time and your patience51:42certainly with my technical issues I had51:44earlier on my voice long left in it but51:51I really appreciate your time and your51:52and sharing your knowledge here it’s51:54been fantastic yeah good yeah and I hope51:59it might enthuse you to look at some of52:02the plays a bit because I know a lot of52:03these plays are restage quite often in52:06my state so University productions but52:08they’re quite funny yeah yeah you too52:14Jamie I really appreciate it and and let52:16me know you know stay in touch and let52:18me know what happens with your52:19dissertation and you know what happens52:23with that and if it gets published I52:24mean if it does I’ll be getting a copy52:27thank you very much maybe in a couple of52:35years okay all right well thank you very52:38much again I really appreciate your time52:40and thank you for talking to me yeah52:42thank you52:45[Music]52:50you